Strategy Thread - BTR

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

But no...instead you want to sit there and play out ludicrous scenarios where the entire German merchant marine is supposed to lay offshore for three days unloading infantry into barges that can barely float, pull those barges to shore at 3 knots and whatnot. its just silly.

Are you being serious?

The 'ludicrous scenarios' you mention are infact well documented German plans. If you think they are retarded then that's most likely you failing to grasp the logistics of the whole operation. You certainly don't seem bothered by such small details as the tides, as you're landing the 1 whole regiment at night.

One parachute division (7th) was included in the plans and were going to (with considerable other forces) attempt to take Dover. What other parachute division are you going use?

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Banquet
Are you being serious?

Yes.

The 'ludicrous scenarios' you mention are infact well documented German plans.

In your world, do plans ever change? In ww2 Germany, did plans ever change?

If you think they are retarded then that's most likely you failing to grasp the logistics of the whole operation. You certainly don't seem bothered by such small details as the tides, as you're landing the 1 whole regiment at night.

Landing 1 regiment at night can be achieved by 10 destroyers. Thats what the Germans did in Narvik anyway. 2000 men ashore in what...an hour?

The logistics of the operation, well the supplies for the Norwegian campaign were all in the cargo holds of ships laying at anchor in the Baltic ports during the time of the invasion. Same can easily be applied here, but the ports can be in France or Holland/Belgium. The troops can take at least 24 hours of supplies with them when they land.

One parachute division (7th) was included in the plans and were going to (with considerable other forces) attempt to take Dover. What other parachute division are you going use?

Again you are harping along the "if the Germans did a retarded Sealion they would have lost". Well, no shit?

22nd Luftlande ID. You could also use one of the mountain divisions if you wanted.

[Banquet]

Of course plans change in war but you seem to be suggesting that months of planning and research be changed on the fly because someone in the German command suddenly comes to the conclusion 'this plan is retarded' It might not be a great plan (due to Germany's lack of equipment suitable to launch a seaborne invasion) but it's the best they could come up with.

22nd Luftlande was not a parachute division it was airborne but needed a captured airfield to land at. So now your 2000 men plus 7th airborne need to capture a port AND an airfield.

Just to be clear, no one here invented the 'retarded' plan for German invasion. It's what the German high command came up with. It was actually quite a bold plan in so far as it would have landed 138,000 men in 2 days, achieving a force of up to 300,000 by day 14. Compared to D-Day (326,000 men by 12 June)

Strangely, when planning D-Day, the allies didn't plan to land 1 airborne division and one regiment to capture Cherbourg. Maybe it's because things aren't as simple as that?

PS, all 10 destroyers that landed that regiment in Narvik were sunk by the RN after the landing.. which says a lot for the German ability to supply their troops across the channel once they got them ashore in England. I think you could also expect the English coast to be better defended.

[Hortlund]

22nd Luftlande was not a parachute division it was airborne but needed a captured airfield to land at. So now your 2000 men plus 7th airborne need to capture a port AND an airfield.

No, it can also be brought in by glider. But that is beside the point, if they have to they can be brought in the first wave by glider, or they can be brought in later via aircraft, glider or ship. Same with various mountain divisions.

It's what the German high command came up with. It was actually quite a bold plan in so far as it would have landed 138,000 men in 2 days, achieving a force of up to 300,000 by day 14. Compared to D-Day (326,000 men by 12 June)

And its completely unneccessary to play with those figures, since landing those 138 000 men would require half of them more or less swimming across the channel. And there is no need for 138 000 men in the first two days. For the first day alone, all you would need is more like 5- 10 000 men. The rest can be brought in by ship to various ports or anchorages.

Strangely, when planning D-Day, the allies didn't plan to land 1 airborne division and one regiment to capture Cherbourg. Maybe it's because things aren't as simple as that?

Yes, hmm...lets brainstorm for a while and see if we can come up with any differences between the German army in France 1944 and the British army in the UK in 1940.

Any thoughts?

PS, all 10 destroyers that landed that regiment in Narvik were sunk by the RN after the landing.. which says a lot for the German ability to supply their troops across the channel once they got them ashore in England. I think you could also expect the English coast to be better defended.

The reason those 10 destroyers were sunk was because they were captured in a fjord several days after the landings. The reason they were still there was because their supply ship had gone down, leaving them practically without fuel.

It doesnt say fuck all about the German ability to supply troops across the channel however.

[Banquet]

At the end of the day, Panzerjaeger Hortlund, the Germans thought they needed 10 divisions to secure the beachheads and capture the ports and infrastructure needed to land the 2nd wave, which would push on into England.

You seem to think you could have done it with 5-10,000 men, plus maybe an airborne division? I guess we'll just to agree to disagree [:)]

[otisabuser2]

In Normandy and Arnhem the Allies mustered only enough Transports and gliders to land parts of three Airbourne Divisions after several years of production. I would be suprised to learn that the Germans had enough to land 2 Divisions so soon after their severe losses in the western campaign.

Which undefended and unready port are you considering cruising those 10 destroyers into ? Norway was caught totally unaware, being neutral when invaded.

Once this port has been captured by coup de main, there is still the issue of getting your main force across to a now known destination and ripe for ambush by the Royal Navy.

With even 2 ports in German hands the chances of a rapid build up and suprise breakout are reduced.

[harley]

This is waaaaaay of topic, guys. Some of you might also want to keep it civil...

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

What I am arguing is that if the Germans did another variant of Sealion, they could very possibly have pulled it off.

Well that's a bit of a trivial answer...of course they could have done it successfully if they had the right resources......and Market Garden could have succeeded, and Dieppe, and the French Plan XVII in 1914, and, and, and.....

however I'm pretty sure almost everyone else in this thread is confining themselves to resources and abilities that the Germans had at the time, and not going 5 years earlier and re-building the whole German military and economy with a view to invading England.

As for the two airborne units, they had the units, and they had the transports. Not enough to lift them all in one go, but thats the neat thing with transports, you can use them more than once.

Only if they dont' get shot down or damaged on landing.

how many Ju-52's did they have in 1940? There's a LW oob page at http://www.ww2.dk/ - look up air units and there's an entry for transort units. Some have no info, but many are listed. A quick look through shows that a lot were disbanded in 1938-39 and then reformed in late 1942.......presumably for Stalingrad.

the wiki page on the invasion of the low countries says that 125 Ju-52's were shot down and 47 damaged for 50% of the total number available.

Imagine what fun the RAF might have had with a full fledged airborne invasion of England...


annual production figures for the Ju-52 are at http://www.geocities.com/hjunkers/ju_aircf_a4.htm

Gliders and transports for the assault, then transports for the reinforcements.

And as for the transports. Bigger ships can unload in ports and other harbors. Smaller ships can be used for the initial assault. Barges can safely be left back in France.

Except they didn't have enough ships to transport everything they wanted, and they anticipated the British blowing all the port facilities and requiring a week or so to repair them sufficiently to be able to offload heavy equipment.

[Dave Ferguson]

Oh, fun, a Sealion row!
 
Just to make things harder for the germans the Brits were reading and decoding Luftwaffe messages by summer 1940 and there is every possibility that they would be aware of the time and place of the invasion. So the germans would to their surprise find that the defenders had managed to pre move their reserves. Actually a ultra intercept was not really needed as the german units shipping from Boulogne and moving at 5 knots would be a looong time at sea. The defence is all down to the RN anyway, the germans could not keep the destroyers out of the channel and just a few there and the invasion would be kaput!
 
dave