How to defeat P-51 escorts?

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Hmmm, realworld combat reports praised the Ta 152H at all altitudes although the engine high-alt supercharger speed proved problematic.

It might be more correct, in game terms, if I had said it is "substantially less impressive at low or medium altitiudes".
Having said that just looking at the very long, thin wings I would find it hard to believe that it wasn't at a serious maneuvering disadvantage at lower altitiudes, although speed may still have been good.

[yubari]

Hmmm, I don't think that the German player really needs any added advantages in 1944. Playing against the AI (as I guess nearly all of us are) and avoiding the large P-51 stacks I am still in turn 190, Feb 1944 shooting down planes at a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio and have a pilot attrition ratio of about 8 to 1, and that is without using such questionable tactics as mass use of night fighters during the day or attacking those confused lost bomber raids that get to the channel and then turn back towards a waypoint in Germany. My industry has barely been touched and I have literally tens of thousands of planes in the pool. And this has all been done with the planes arriving at historical times. I dread to think what I could do if I had Ta 152s.

Now of course anyone may play the game however they wish, but in my opinion, any German player playing against the AI would be making the game trivially easy for themselves by using this tactic.

Is it possible to find the manouever statistics for the different altitudes for the 152? Does it work as in WITP AE, where the planes have their highest performance at the lowest range band and then this deteriorates as the plane goes higher, deteriorating at a fast rate for a Spitfire L or Fw 190 and at a slow rate for a P47 or Ta 152?

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: yubari

Does it work as in WITP AE, where the planes have their highest performance at the lowest range band and then this deteriorates as the plane goes higher, deteriorating at a fast rate for a Spitfire L or Fw 190 and at a slow rate for a P47 or Ta 152?

My Understanding is that it uses a performance curve rather than the linear model WITP AE uses (where all A/C have best performance at Sea Level, trailing off as they climb).
So, for example a P-47 has much harder time at low altitude against bf-109's and Fw-190's, but improves significantly at higher altitudes.
A Spitfire Mk F.IX might be fairly good at low altitude, get better as is climbs to its optimal altitude and then have performance drop off again as it climbs higher still.
The best advice I have seen is to use aircraft at the altitudes the were histoically designed for and you will get the best out of them.

[CV Zuikaku]

There are some strange things with italian fighters. Seems that Re2005s and Mc205 Veltros perform better than Bf-109G6s. Re2005s got better statistics than G6s, so thats not strange. But Veltros are statisticaly slightly inferior to G6s. Yet, with lower skilled and lower morale italian pilots they are more successfull against Spitfires, P-38s and other fighters than G6s flown by higher morale and experience German pilots.
So, whats the secret? I'm considering converting german gruppen to Veltros if they are so much better against fighters.

[Dobey455]

Too many unknowns from your question.

Do the Italian fighters also take fewer losses?
Are all the fighter types engaged in combat for the same duration and intercepting at the same time?

German fighters mostly start further back in Italy so have less fuel by the time they intercept, meaning less time to get kills.

Also whether you intercept inbound or outbound raids matters. Or if your fighters hit BINGO fuel and have to break off before the allies also makes a big difference (usually in the form of higher losses).

Also the composition of the raids themselves matter, so if the Bf-109s are intercepting raids with better cover they will have a harder time.

The stats in game represent the best performance at optimum altitude, but maneuverability will vary at different altitudes (possibly other stats as well).

[CV Zuikaku]

Strange thing is that they intercept at the same time and from approx. same ranges.
Yes, italian fighters are mixed together with german since I always try to overwhelm and decimate one raid. And yet, they score more kills then germans and are taking lighter casualties in fighter vs. fighter combat. And ,yes, they are on the same doctrine (bounce fighter)

[Dobey455]

After looking at the stats in game the interesting thing is actually that I would disagree and say the Veltro is the better plane!

The stats are almost identical, with the Veltro being 1mph faster and having a 500ft / min better climb, but the BIG killer here is the Veltro has 40% more firepower!!!
a gun value of 14 compared to the BF-109's value of 10.

This seems about right considering the BF-109 has two MG's and a single 20mm cannon while the Veltro has 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG's.

So basically the 2 A/C perform almost identically, but the Veltro is more likely to kill what ever it hits.
As for experience I would say that Experience differentials are less obvious than WITP AE.
10 points of experience difference is not a huge difference, morale would matter more at that point.

[cohimbra]

Well, the Re.2005 and the G.55 seems to be better than MC.205:



the bad thing is that all these three italian models need x2 Fiat Engine,
the Bf 109G-6 need only one DB 605A engine.

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Well, the Re.2005 and the G.55 seems to be better than MC.205:

the bad thing is that all these three italian models need x2 Fiat Engine,
the Bf 109G-6 need only one DB 605A engine.

They are indeed very nice. I was trying to say the MC.205 had better stats than the Bf-109G-6, I didn't mean to imply it was better than some of the other Italian fighters [;)]

You are correct that the engines are a draw back in the use of Italian fighters (ie holds up production.)

[CV Zuikaku]

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....

The requirement for 2 engines is supposed to reflect the numerous problems that were encountered in manufacturing certain Italian engines and its effect in delaying overall production.

Converting 109's to Italian types.......Well a few things to consider:

1)Although the Italian types have a firepower advantage over the bf-109, the Messerschmitt is still superior to early model Spits and the P-40s which make up the early allied air forces in the Mediterranean. By the time the Allies upgrade you will be able to upgrade to later models of the 109.

2) Production of Italian types is limited to a few factories in Italy. Is the loss of production caused by switching out German factories worth it considering for the same disruptions you could be building FW-190's, researching Ta-152's and latter model 109's, etc?
(ie a slight advantage early in the game at the cost of development later).

3) Against the AI anything is fair, but in a PBEM your opponent has the ability to "respond in kind". So if you start equipping your German squadrons with Italian fighters you cant really complain if he starts filling out RAF squadrons with P-47's and B-17's.

[CV Zuikaku]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....

The requirement for 2 engines is supposed to reflect the numerous problems that were encountered in manufacturing certain Italian engines and its effect in delaying overall production.

Converting 109's to Italian types.......Well a few things to consider:

1)Although the Italian types have a firepower advantage over the bf-109, the Messerschmitt is still superior to early model Spits and the P-40s which make up the early allied air forces in the Mediterranean. By the time the Allies upgrade you will be able to upgrade to later models of the 109.

2) Production of Italian types is limited to a few factories in Italy. Is the loss of production caused by switching out German factories worth it considering for the same disruptions you could be building FW-190's, researching Ta-152's and latter model 109's, etc?
(ie a slight advantage early in the game at the cost of development later).

3) Against the AI anything is fair, but in a PBEM your opponent has the ability to "respond in kind". So if you start equipping your German squadrons with Italian fighters you cant really complain if he starts filling out RAF squadrons with P-47's and B-17's.

1) That's true!

2) I do not plan to expand production too much. on 31st of August I plan to downgrade all italian squadrons to worthless planes and move all Veltros, Sagittarios and Centauros to pool. And then I'll reequip only few luftwaffe gruppen in Italy with them.

3) I play against AI. And I don't try to recreate historical income. I find testing alternate strategies and researching some planes more challenging and fun.

4) Pips Priller finally got few kills after I equipped his Schippol based Stab with Re.2005s [:)] That is fun to me.

[Dobey455]

Best of Luck.

Let me know if you see a major difference between those German units equipt with the 109 when compared to those with the decent Italian planes.

[Paraminator]

I make a test.
Only for research. [;)]
310 Rounds in four weeks.
I get my first T152H in January 1944.
Bulid 50 planes in any day.
And this plane is a really beast. [&o]
Fast. Very good range. And very deadly against P47 & P51.
An attack with 63 B26 and many escort-fighter, ends with 63 B26 in the ground. Any many of the escortfighters go down with small losses.
My losses with the T152H are by my own FLAK or when the airfield is under attack.

[CV Zuikaku]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Best of Luck.

Let me know if you see a major difference between those German units equipt with the 109 when compared to those with the decent Italian planes.

G55s tends to get lots of kills but with horrible losses of their own. Re2005s are fast and lethal. Much better than G6s. Real fighter killers. Mc205 Veltros are good. Better than G6s ,not lethal as Re2005s but tend to take much lesser losses.

[yubari]

310 Rounds in four weeks.

Wowsers, that is fast play, congratulations! I have only reached turn 235 from a game I started in 2009.

As I said earlier in this thread, I thought that this tactic would lead to serious game balance problems and it does appear to be so, the allies just don't have a chance if 50 Ta152s are being made a day in January 1944.

[kaleun]

The need for 2 fiat engines is to represent the difficulty Fiat had in building the licensed DB engine (They needed parts from Germany that DB was not sending in enough numbers)

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: Strv103C

I'm in the 43GC as german and in mid december 43 the P-51B seems unstoppable. Is there any recommended tactic against those P-51 escorted raids?

Ok, this is a tip from the old Talon soft game, but I'll guess its useful in this matrix version

Never ever directly intercept escorted raids. Instead form concentrated patrols and continually bounce their escorts with G-14s and FW 190D from high altitude. Always attack the highest escort first, and concentrate on the late arrivals (those are the guys with the most fuel). Let your bomber detroyers shadow the raid until the escorts begin to thin out and turn home ...then the bomber massacre can begin.

Another tip, use refuelled fighters to harras the P51 on their return flights, you can down a lot of them this way. And don't miss the bomber stragglers, your units can rack up a lot of kills picking those down.

[RichardL58]

The trick is to overwelm the escorts with your best and most experienced units.

Form patrols in packs of 5-6 Gruppen at high level for engaging every escorting element before you commit the bomber destroyers. Also form a bunch of patrols consisting of swarms of 4 planes (or 12), to shadow the raid at close distance during combat, for engaging those escort groups that split in two and try to chew up your heavy Fw:s or twin engines.

You should also first check the raiders real altitude (the radar doesn't always give the corret altitude). Do a "banzai" intercept with a swarm right in the middle of the raid group, and recall it at once when it made contact.

[mark dolby]

ORIGINAL: RichardL58



You should also first check the raiders real altitude (the radar doesn't always give the corret altitude). Do a "banzai" intercept with a swarm right in the middle of the raid group, and recall it at once when it made contact.

Actually make that schwarm equipped with G55 at the start of the game and 109G5AS when you have them at max altitude. You will be 10k above any escorts who won't touch you, you will see the exact composition, speed and height of all components and you can stay with the raid if you want without risk. Also if one of those bombers drops out you can bounce it by already being in the air.