Axis Acft not intercepting and Allied escort Ftr ability ...

[anthonykevinluke]

Hi all,

Been playing this game on and off since it's release some 20 years ago. With new patch I have seen a constant issue with Axis acft just flying along with the allied bombers and nor engaging, the UN may approve but Axis High Command is not amused! After looking at it a few time I found the Axis ftrs were flying under the bombers and not climbing to intercept. It appears that if you have acft set to patrol that are then given intercept orders, and are not at the height or higher than the intercept tgt then they just follow along underneath and don't climb, staying at the height they were at before set to intercept .... anyone else seeing this?

Another question I have relates to the incredibly bad performance of german acft against allied ftrs. The amount of times I have been 5-10k above an allied formation with its escorts and have tried to attack the escorts and then I get bounced by them is so bad that I don't bother anymore. It seems impossible to bounce spitfires or P38Js regardless of if you are higher or whatever you try. Any solutions or is it hard coded that the allied ftrs on escort or sweep will always get the bounce?

Any thoughts, comments are welcome.

Cheers, AKL.

[MarkShot]

I've only played LW-BOB.

This is half speculation for both yourself and Richard who is doing the bug fixing.

Might it be that the default is set to BOUNCE? As the LW fighters lack altitude, they fail the test to be able to BOUNCE.

[mark dolby]

First, what version of the game are you playing? The most recent patches seems to deal with this problem to a degree.

IF it is a problem... Getting above the Allied escorts is paramount but did you get the right height reported to you before you scrambled? Radar reports are notorious for inaccuracies, varying by some 10k sometimes only minutes apart. Visual conformation is best. Try using a schwarm set at max alt to shadow the formation before committing the defending interceptors. Playing the game for 20 yrs should have your 'spidey senses' tingling whenever you see the first initial radar plot and knowing which is a FB, med or heavy bomber plot.

Doctrine will also play an important part. Direct attack on the bombers may allow a better chance to get at the bombers but will result in far more combat with the escorts, usually at a disadvantage. And very rarely will a full escort group attack together. They have a job to do and do it well. Now if your Gruppen are trying to bounce, then you and the escorts will be trying to get the best position to attack and this leads to a lot of 'eyeballing' with no combat or losses. Frustrating but accurate.

Numbers. Try to get 5,6 or more Gruppen to intercept at the same time. Some with bias to the escorts and others going for the bombers. Even then, you will notice the radar reports for the escorts multiply into a lot more then you had first reported. Live with it, the USAAF escort groups are very strong.

Often, the most chances start to occur when the bombers come away from the target. Fragmenting before coming back into formation. But this means they have bombed the target. Not the best result by far. Hopefully the flak will have knocked some out of formation for easy kills. And this leads into losses...
USAAF get 30 replacement B17/24 a day. You need to be knocking down more than that. Sounds simple? It is. But it is a long term strategy. You know this. Trying to keep your losses acceptable, especially in experienced pilots is the other side of the strategy.

Overall I think there is no problem with the mechanics. The escorts are trying to keep the LW away and only have to be there to prevent a slaughter amongst the bombers (which have quite a nasty sting until the boxes are broken). The LW whats those bombers down but who wants to die first trying? Do you give that order? Personally I prefer trying to keep my LW pilots alive for better chances. The game has come a long way in the last 3 years. Overall the realism has improved. Many minor inaccuracies have been ironed out along with a few major glaring ones. And its still a challenge.
I think the Allied AI is much improved but still has tendencies a LW player can exploit.

[anthonykevinluke]

Hi Mark Dolby and Markshot,

Firstly, thank you for your replies and comments, and many thanks to those still working to make this gem of a game even better. The current AI is the best yet by far, great work.

Markshot - Yes the ftrs were on bounce but the issue is if already on patrol and then tasked to intercept they do not change their altitude; for instance in one case the B17's were flying at a (confirmed) 21,000ft, the ftrs, which I'd scrambled to get in position had not yet reached the set height of 27,000ft which I had set. When I tasked them to intercept they were only at 16,400ft and then proceeded to fly beneath the bombers from Rheine, Nth all the way to Emden. Noted this behaviour a few times before I realised that they had to be at or above the tgts height to intercept. For your consideration.

Mark Dolby - Thank you for your thoughts on the ftr issue (bmbr issue addressed above) but there does seem to be a remarkable bias towards the Spitfires, and at this point the later P38 varieties, when it comes to intercepting. I repeatedly set JG's to heights ranging from 5-10k ft above the raids being escorted by spitfires or P38's (confirmed height and raid mix by using stabs or schwarms to fly in and check raid composition and height), and the result is (after two months of game time) the allied ftrs have always bounced the JG's. Perhaps I just have atrocious luck but would be interested to know if others are noting this. I have played BTR since it's release in Australia some 20 years ago use all the tactics that you noted below, but again thanks for the comments. For your consideration.

Cheers,

AKL

[mark dolby]

Hi.
I usually set my initial patrol height against heavy bombers anywhere from 27-32k depending on the initial report from shadowing fighters. I also tend to intercept fairly far from the coast as most of the airfields basing Gruppen will be just behind the Rhur on a N/S dissecting line. Whilst I might get a few less Gruppen to attack raids against the Rhur itself I do have less issues with Spitfires this way. Most airfields having a unit West of this line will be no stronger than a staffel, often only a schwarm size unit for patrolling or in the case of a ZG stab tackling damaged bombers trying to get home. This reduces the chances of ground losses and allows for the flak to be heavier at fewer airfields.

I do not intercept until my fighters have reached their allotted altitudes or I know they are above the bombers. I will not set my units to 'intercept' from the ground as this uses far to much fuel. The travelling below the bomber issue I have only noticed if a unit is ordered to intercept a unit but the target unit was at a vastly different altitude when the fighters caught up with it. And this is from faulty radar reports which can still occur if shadowing units have left due to low fuel and no new ones have arrived. Another reason why I only issue intercept orders when at a height advantage.

I think a lot of the Allied bounce issues is due to the large amount of Allied escorts and that the types are generally better than the LW ones. I have noticed that when LW fighters do get a bounce the results are better than a couple of years ago. The combat mechanics were tweaked and an issue with pilot quality resolved so I think it's better overall.

Mark.