WOW !!!!

[HMSWarspite]

You have to play with a degree of restraint - don't target Dover bug aircraft (cant stop the flak though), don't use too many NF on airfield patrol (annoyingly effective), don't target stragglers directly (allow AI to find them) etc. But still an interesting struggle. I am enjoying my games!

[FreeBird]

I am in Jan 44 of the '43 BTR campaign as the Allies. I love both of these monster games and would be playing them, warts and all, even if Matrix hadn't inked a deal. Since there is a deal then there is hope that some of these things can be addressed.

One feature that I would really like to see added is the ability to save mission plans so that they can be called up later. There is almost nothing more frustrating than taking the time to set up a major raid and having it cancelled on account of weather. Knowing that you will have to go repeat the entire process from scratch the next day, hoping that the weather will turn in your favor.

Regards..

[Charles2222]

I spoke earlier of a death-ray, but I misspoke. It was actually coined a freeze-ray. Although I did not narrow down all the particulars, like whether it happened with all fighter types or not, what the deal was, was if you were playing Gerry, an FG coming from England (don't think I ever saw freeze rays when the raids came from the south), and it looked like I had targeted your FG airfield, you might send an FG off that field to intercept it. Without fail, if they graphically collide head-on, they will freeze there, doing absolutely nothing; looking VERY amateurish. When one of the FG's runs out of fuel it will head back to it's base (usually the Germans). This will "usually" result in the Allied FG getting a potshot at the German FG without retaliation, then the Allied FG will head back home.

If the cheapness of the graphical part of this doesn't drive you up the wall, and it did me, then the ramifications of what happened should. For instance, though having longer ranged fighters might change things, as I only tried it from the long campaign beginnings, the German player, if this always had the same result, could stop an airfield raid of fighters, every single time with the "smallest" number of aircraft his FG could send up. Unfortunately if the GE player wanted to send what would be a fair amount up against the raid, he would then get the short end of the stick as the Allied FG would get stopped, but would get a potshot at the GE FG.

Naturally, if the Allied a/c were a Mustang and the GE FG were Komets, then the Mustang may not be turned back after frozen and then getting a potshot on the Komets, but then proceed on to the airfield, but I wasn't interested enough in trying that sort of thing out considering how I could so easily have the freeze ray occur virtually at whim in the early going ,therefore ruining the game for me. So you say: Well why attack them head-on then? Very simple, because though you might like to at least have some sort of angle, at least in the early going it's almost impossible to intercept airfield raids if you're hoping to intercept them in any other manner. There's just not enough GE fighters to put up opposition at all times. Needless to say the situation is grossly exasterbated if you let them hit the airfields. In any case, it's a bug.

I guess it wasn't as common as the bit about the FW190's not getting up to full speed in pursuit (thereby not being able to intercept virtually anything but bombers), which was fixed, but once that was fixed the freeze ray appeared. Maybe they're not related, but I believe the removal of the one bug and the introduction of the other were both on 1.5.

The only thing I don't recall, and I'm sure I would have tried both, those few years ago, is whether it occurred for both direct interceptions, or also for patrols of the airfield that had then changed to an intercept.

As things currently are on my end, should this just be too difficult for someone else to recreate, I have the original game, but have the patches only up to 1.3 (if in fact I hadn't deleted them in disgust by now). I have an XP so I lost my old patches up to 1.6. I can get the 1.5 pretty easily I think, but of course I wasn't interested since that version I knew was unplayable (a lot of websites seem to have it). Getting 1.4 is impossible when relying on game websites alone. Just thought I would mention that.

[Hard Sarge]

Speedy
I still there and here,

C-22
well, I did a lot of testing on that, did a lot of talking to JC about it, as the Allies I do not see it, will go in shortly and try a head to head and see if I can make it happen still, but to be honest, I never did see too much feedback from the GE players, the Dover and Recon were bigger issues to most players

most of the Dover has been fixed, Recon and FBs have been touched up (FB were real strange, make them so they could fight, MB couldn't hit anything, make them so the wouldn't fight and the MB could hit, but the FB got slaughtered, I really fought the idea of putting a Tail gun into a Typoon, so we came up with something a little different, it works, but it is not real)

give the newer patches and OOBs a try (I will look into the Freeseray) and see if it feels any better

BUT
overall, this could be a dream come true
if Matrixs can rework the games (Talonsoft had a good number of decent games, I own almost every one on the list) we will be sitting Wargamers Heaven

HARD_Sarge


lets make a new post so we can talk and not take away from the good news

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Speedy
I still there and here,

C-22
well, I did a lot of testing on that, did a lot of talking to JC about it, as the Allies I do not see it, will go in shortly and try a head to head and see if I can make it happen still, but to be honest, I never did see too much feedback from the GE players, the Dover and Recon were bigger issues to most players

most of the Dover has been fixed, Recon and FBs have been touched up (FB were real strange, make them so they could fight, MB couldn't hit anything, make them so the wouldn't fight and the MB could hit, but the FB got slaughtered, I really fought the idea of putting a Tail gun into a Typoon, so we came up with something a little different, it works, but it is not real)

give the newer patches and OOBs a try (I will look into the Freeseray) and see if it feels any better

BUT
overall, this could be a dream come true
if Matrixs can rework the games (Talonsoft had a good number of decent games, I own almost every one on the list) we will be sitting Wargamers Heaven

HARD_Sarge

Well, good to see y'all gave it more of an effort (freeze-ray) anyway. I don't expect that every bug gets fixed especially by somebody doing so as the unoriginal author, and considering that the fix that likely caused it had fixed such an awful problem, it would be pretty stymying to fix the freeze only to see the lack of catching up to fighters reemerge.

I've been so out-of-the-loop with this game, or JC's forum, that I clicked on the forum link somebody provided and somehow got through all the nonsense and somehow even recalled my logonid and password; and it worked no less. Just did it out of curiousity. Of course I had no use for the forum anyway until the fix was made and since for lack of popularity it seemed nobody wanted anything more to do with it than wait for a infamous enough uprising I decided I would pass.

Yeah it's funny you talk about other bugs, but mine was so devastating to me that I couldn't get deep enough into the game to find anymore setbacks. I usually pretty tolerant with bugs, as I can find some way around them (When I had USAAF for example, my planes on patrol, on occasion, would attack themselves [an AppleIIE back then] and I discovered a method to greatly minimize that). But this, but this, was just too devastating. It makes defense of any of the more coastal airfields impossible, even when you know where they're going (unless you like to stop an entire raid with one plane). I was always playing the AI BTW. Never did I try to recreate it HTH.

Back in the day HS, I could recreate this bug at will (and probably could here today, only, as I said, I don't have the sufficient patches to get it to the point where it appears), and JC just told me he didn't have enough gripes about it to waste his time on it (which you just basically did as well). I suppose if the bugs you spoke about, or mine, were bad enough to make at least half the people give up playing it till it was fixed, then everybody lost out. It would be pretty futile to have freeze-ray fixed, if I found I just couldn't deal with those other bugs, but then I didn't have a chance to see hwo revolted I would get at them. I said it all along, the lack of people playing the Germans was driving preferring other things to the ignoring of freeze-ray, and seems I was at least half right. Even many of the German players probably didn't think of abandoning all of France and defending the German coastal airfields, as I did, adding further to the lack of concern for fixing it. Oh well. Hopefully GG has the right stuff.

[Hard Sarge]

Go to post C-22 and we can talk more

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: thinz2

The link I have for JCL's site is http://pub103.ezboard.com/bbtrbombingthereich

Did that Forum also cover BOB or just BTR?

[wernerpruckner]

Greyshaft:

we also discussed about BoB sometimes - in the last few month it is mainly otisabuser and me

Werner

[TaggedYa]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

This is good news for me, but as far as the prior BTR fixer guy getting involved I'm not so sure. The 1.5 fix brought the death-ray which I've argued about to a small extent on this forum with Hard_Sarge and him (some Jeane-Claude or something). His fix got rid of one problem that was disgusting (planes not catching up to Allied planes [staying on cruise speeds]), but that same patch, though it may not have been due to that particular fix, caused another. The whole thing left quite a bitter taste in my mouth, particularly since GG was pretty much absent from it pretty quickly and though I could recreate it, it didn't seem to bother enough people for anyone to try to fix it (as though a lot of people were complaing about JG26 being on the wrong airfield, etc.). Maybe with some help JC can figure out the death-ray solution (assuming anyone but me cares). I guess the main thing would be to wait to see once this is redone whether the bane of my BTR play for so many years will had been removed.

First; I think what you are referring to is the freeze ray. Specifically, when an intercept is made from the same or higher altitude in the forward 30 degrees of the target unit then all aircraft freeze in place till they run out of fuel. Hard Sarge also seems to believe this is what you mean.

If so; this is a hard coded problem that has been there from the start. JC did not cause it. The last OB made it slightly (very slightly in my opinion) worse.

Next; even if JC had broken half a dozen things with his work it would be a crime not to take advantage of the vast contribution he has made if in fact he is willing to have his work included. This is a moot point at the moment however as he seems to currently be incognito.

As to the bitter taste; I will have to second that one. The general reaction to my comments on the problem were very much of the “who cares” and “it’s not a bug its supposed to be that way” and “it represents a fur ball”. I of coarse have never heard of an hour long aerial fight where no damage occurred but then who am I, certainly not an expert. I wouldn’t know JG26 was on the wrong field and worse couldn’t care less now that I know it.

[Richrd]

The freeze thing didn't bother me so much. If you got another German group into the fight before the first group withdrew then the second group would cover the withdrawal of the first group. Sooner or later the spitfires would also have to withdraw and if you managed to insert a German group just before that point the spits would be torn to pieces. Hello to all the guys from JC's forum. Did anyone invite Harley?

[TaggedYa]

ORIGINAL: Richrd

The freeze thing didn't bother me so much. If you got another German group into the fight before the first group withdrew then the second group would cover the withdrawal of the first group. Sooner or later the spitfires would also have to withdraw and if you managed to insert a German group just before that point the spits would be torn to pieces. Hello to all the guys from JC's forum. Did anyone invite Harley?

This is just the point that bugs me. I either have to let the allies take a massive free shot at me or I have to take a massive free shot at them. What should happen is the same kind of fights you get when intercepts are made from any other angle than dead ahead.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: TaggedYa

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

This is good news for me, but as far as the prior BTR fixer guy getting involved I'm not so sure. The 1.5 fix brought the death-ray which I've argued about to a small extent on this forum with Hard_Sarge and him (some Jeane-Claude or something). His fix got rid of one problem that was disgusting (planes not catching up to Allied planes [staying on cruise speeds]), but that same patch, though it may not have been due to that particular fix, caused another. The whole thing left quite a bitter taste in my mouth, particularly since GG was pretty much absent from it pretty quickly and though I could recreate it, it didn't seem to bother enough people for anyone to try to fix it (as though a lot of people were complaing about JG26 being on the wrong airfield, etc.). Maybe with some help JC can figure out the death-ray solution (assuming anyone but me cares). I guess the main thing would be to wait to see once this is redone whether the bane of my BTR play for so many years will had been removed.

First; I think what you are referring to is the freeze ray. Specifically, when an intercept is made from the same or higher altitude in the forward 30 degrees of the target unit then all aircraft freeze in place till they run out of fuel. Hard Sarge also seems to believe this is what you mean.

If so; this is a hard coded problem that has been there from the start. JC did not cause it. The last OB made it slightly (very slightly in my opinion) worse.

Next; even if JC had broken half a dozen things with his work it would be a crime not to take advantage of the vast contribution he has made if in fact he is willing to have his work included. This is a moot point at the moment however as he seems to currently be incognito.

As to the bitter taste; I will have to second that one. The general reaction to my comments on the problem were very much of the “who cares” and “it’s not a bug its supposed to be that way” and “it represents a fur ball”. I of coarse have never heard of an hour long aerial fight where no damage occurred but then who am I, certainly not an expert. I wouldn’t know JG26 was on the wrong field and worse couldn’t care less now that I know it.

Well you and I certainly think alike. I must tell you though, from my pre-1.5 playing, that the freeze ray did not appear, ever, seriously. I don't know how much of the planes's graphics is allowed to sit straight at each other and still look graphically as dead-on, but I never saw it occur with any sort of angle but dead-on. It's good to know somebody else out there saw it even worse than I did; sort of.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Richrd

The freeze thing didn't bother me so much. If you got another German group into the fight before the first group withdrew then the second group would cover the withdrawal of the first group. Sooner or later the spitfires would also have to withdraw and if you managed to insert a German group just before that point the spits would be torn to pieces. Hello to all the guys from JC's forum. Did anyone invite Harley?

I didn't think of a trick like that, but then again when you have deficit fighters and the USA comes full force, or seems to, that first turn, you don't have much fighters to spare. then you have to hope the next turn in miserable weather.

[Charles2222]

I wonder if any of you guys ever noticed, that you could stop an Allied airfield attack with just one plane, using the freeze ray if you wanted. Ridiculous.

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I wonder if any of you guys ever noticed, that you could stop an Allied airfield attack with just one plane, using the freeze ray if you wanted. Ridiculous.

in one of the versions that was nearly always true, but at the moment it happens less often (~ 30% )

Werner

[Hard Sarge]

Hello to all the guys from JC's forum. Did anyone invite Harley?

not sure what you mean ? invite here to this forum ? (if so, he has known about this place for years, and comes here alot, also knows the news about Talonsoft)

if you mean the freese ray, he also did testing on it

[Hard Sarge]

You guys are really confusing me (maybe not so HARD to do anymore)

one post, this is a bad thing for the GE player, next post it is a good thing for the GE player, it is a bug (you think) that ruins the game, then it is with out this tactic, you could not play the game

come on gang, we can't have it both ways

odd, the post about on the first day and the overwelming number of US planes ????

the GE is never going to be as strong as they are on the first day

if the AI, sent out the entire 8th FC on the first day, on sweeps, I Would be danceing for Joy

thing that still bugs (oops) me about this thing, is the player has to do it

I'll run some more tests

[von Shagmeister]

Hi All,

The freeze ray bug effects both Allied and Axis players.

Playing as the Axis it is possible for the smallest Axis element (in the case of the game a kette of 3 a/c) to intercept an incoming Allied sweep and stop it dead, but from my experience it is always the Axis a/c that break off first even though they may have only just taken off. Whilst the freeze ray is in effect no movement across the map or combat occurs.

von Shagmeister

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

You guys are really confusing me (maybe not so HARD to do anymore)

one post, this is a bad thing for the GE player, next post it is a good thing for the GE player, it is a bug (you think) that ruins the game, then it is with out this tactic, you could not play the game

come on gang, we can't have it both ways

odd, the post about on the first day and the overwelming number of US planes ????

the GE is never going to be as strong as they are on the first day

if the AI, sent out the entire 8th FC on the first day, on sweeps, I Would be danceing for Joy

thing that still bugs (oops) me about this thing, is the player has to do it

I'll run some more tests

I'm sorry it's so hard for non-Gerry players to understand.

You do one thing and you gype the Allies, you do the other and you gype yourself. I must say i never threw "more" planes into the sty, as someone suggested, so I have no idea what that would do, only it seems fairly dumb on the face of it, excpet to get your guy out unmolested, because you would think that would result in making the freeze go on longer, however, if that recuer came from a different angle you might have something there.

Let me illustrate what happens:

1. You need to figure out just what airfield is fixing to get hit. Not easy for a rookie German player.
2. Scramble your opposition making sure your planes hit them head-on.
3. Watch the freeze ray.

Now I put it that way not because any GE player deliberately tries to hit them square on, despite what you seem to believe, but because this is quite frequently what will have to be faced in order to interfere with your airfield being struck. Fighters aren't terribly easy to pick up on radar, if the radar even works any more, and what's more their closing speed is very rapid. Often the only thing that can be done is to attack them from the front. Often they are detected and the target identified so late that your plane intercepts over the airfield itself or too late. The idea, is to intercpet before they get there, which if the attacker is a mere 2-3 hexes away will mean that only something out of the target intercepting, more times than not, will have a chance.

So in other words, the player can avoid it, but only if he doesn't mind those more troublesome FG raids going by completely unchecked on the way to the target. You let them come, or you freeze them and then one side or the other gets gyped. I'm not sure ALL headons freeze like this (which are airfield raids), as someone had earlier mentioned altitude superiority and such, but who doesn't want that anyway when intercepting? I'm starting to think you're incapable of understanding this. All I can say is that it happens frequently enough, for something that's not supposed to happen to make a good many intercept attempts a joke.

Maybe there's some sort of logic to this thing. Though I repeat that I never saw this before 1.5, if it were before that version, if GG had put it in the game deliberately, such that he might say that if an FG were going to an airfield they might always stop and engage any enemy FG's along the way instead, fine and good perhaps, but seeing how they don't even fight would mean it was very poorly implemented. You don't see escorts stopping when they are "actually fighting".

[wernerpruckner]

Well you and I certainly think alike. I must tell you though, from my pre-1.5 playing

you mean 1.05 exe ?? or OA/OB ??
you can create the freeze ray with nearly every exe version, but the FR bug is probably one of the tiniest bugs, and in a PBEm you can work around it.
Other bugs were and are game destroying - like the Dover/Belfast bug ( or pingpong bug) - this damn thing is still in it, and it is annoying to start a huge 8th AF armada in late 44 in the moring and at 22:00 it is still circling above some frontline Flak fortresses. Or you start a raid and they fly back to the base and than back to the target and so on.... no way to play around it.