british replacement system in BOB

[Hard Sarge]

what can be done with knocking out power ???

[Hard Sarge]

check out the date on the 2nd pic

[Hard Sarge]

just in case, a more normal ending
jan 2nd 1945

[Speedysteve]

I'm being nice bud you know that [;)]

[otisabuser2]

Hi all,

HardSarge is right in that the Powerplants need to be in to make the game funtion correctly.

By adding more real powerplants we can remove the exploit because:-

1) Need to hit more Powerplants than currently to do anything.

2) Each new plant can be smaller in value than the fewer originals. So less points gained from damaging them.

3) We can add enough smaller plants to comfortably exceed the "electricity" the game needs. The LW will need to knock out the excess plants before anything starts to bite.

This is all easily achievable.

regards Otisabuser

[Speedysteve]

Hi OB,

Good to see ya. I assume you are referring to BoB specifically and not BTR? I think BTR after JC mods is about right.

Regards,

Steven

[wernerpruckner]

Speedy,

you really think so ??
I gave JC a list of additional 20 powerplants,
that should have at least a size 4 in comparison with the other sites in BTR ( and these are only the tip of the iceberg )

Werner

PS: by the way a few other really nice big sites are also missing ( a lvl 6 to 8 ALUM, a few 1 to 3pointer STEEL, many ARM sites....)

[Speedysteve]

Hi swift,

Yes I think so.

Some of the represented industries could have more added (even beyond what JC has done). But I think as it stands the PP in BTR represent the realistic situation pretty well.

[seydlitz_slith]

Here is a suggestion for BOB (Power in BTR is fine):

1. Remove the logistics/production impact of power plant loss (or reduce it to about 10% effect instead of 100% effect).
2. Add in some terror points instead. People tend to get uncomfortable when they have no power or water.

The logistics impact of power plant damage is way overstated in the BoB logistics model. Loss of power affects everything under the current model. In reality ( meaning the short span of time covered in the full BOB campaign), you would not see this dramatic an affect.

Military installations would still be operating normally (i.e. fighter command would still be fully functional).

Railyards would still be fully functional (Steam, not electric powered most British Rails during 1939-1941).

Many large industrial complexes where it is absolutely critical to have uninterrupted power will have some form of back up power generation that ensures they are able to keep operating. Maybe in a say the impact is 60% initially, but repairing very fast (like an airfield) back up to where the impact is only 30%.

Radar sites within the service area of the power plant would be offline (unless someone is able to prove that they were built with onsite power generation (generators). I do not know the answer to this in the case of the WWII british radar chain of fixed sites. If they were relying on public power, then hitting the plants would be important because the power loss would knock out sections of the radar net.

Thoughts?

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz
Radar sites within the service area of the power plant would be offline (unless someone is able to prove that they were built with onsite power generation (generators). I do not know the answer to this in the case of the WWII british radar chain of fixed sites. If they were relying on public power, then hitting the plants would be important because the power loss would knock out sections of the radar net.

I'm concerned about this approach. In 1940 the Germans;

a) didn't know how accurate the British Radar was;
b) didn't know the effect of a radar controlled air battle;
c) thought they could defeat the RAF in a week anyway.

So the idea of a player deliberately attacking British power plants in order to disable radar strikes me as a little too gamey. Hindsight is OK to a point but I can't see any justification for letting the Germans disable radar except through direct attack on the radar sites.

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Seyditz
I think you are over simplify things

Industry would have back up, yes, but back up for lights and other things, not enough to run the factory, if they did, they wouldn't need the powerplants to start with

RR's, well, yes the trains would be fine, but what about the stations ?, the switching, and the com wouldn't be done with Steam

the type of power loss we would be talking about is not something that would be fixable in a day

FC, would/should be able to work, but would be hampered

I mean think about it, we not talking about a couple of blocks around the London Docks being with out power, we saying 60-70% of England losing there power

I don't have any of the radar plans handy (I have seen them) but I would say they had there own power supply, as would most of the bases

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Seyditz
I think you are over simplify things

Industry would have back up, yes, but back up for lights and other things, not enough to run the factory, if they did, they wouldn't need the powerplants to start with

RR's, well, yes the trains would be fine, but what about the stations ?, the switching, and the com wouldn't be done with Steam

the type of power loss we would be talking about is not something that would be fixable in a day

Yes, I may be oversimplifying, but I can speak with confidence on some of these points.

In industry, there would be an impact, but as I mentioned earlier, a certian percentage of industry would have their own backup power generation sources. The chemical plants and refineries for sure. At least that is the situation that exists in real life today. And usually the industry only runs their internal power source to test it, or during peak demand periods to supplement what they are receiving from their citiy supply. It all depends on their contracted rates. Usually it is cheaper to run the city power, although contractscan be funny. One firm that I was with had a contract where the cost varied by time of day. As such, they would do power generation during that peak period to reduce costs, and then switch back to public power during off peak times when the rates were favorable. Again, I concede that my viewpoint is most likely skewed by RL experience, which may not apply in the case of WW2 Britain.

Regarding the railroads, they would survive much better than you think. Railroads operated for decades without electrical power or radio/phones. Operations would be slowed slightly, but would in no way would they be totally halted.


I still say that due to the limited scope of the model in BOB, you have to remove the power plants or significantly alter their affect on the logistics model in BOB. And again, the easiest thing to do would be to just remove them because historically they were not attacked during that time frame and thus did not appear on the german target list. It would be great if we could find a way for the model to work in a way that removes the exploit. I don't think quadrupling the number of power plants is the answer.

[TaggedYa]

To do it right you would have to assess the effect of power hits on an industry by industry basis. It might even be wise to look at a plant by plant basis. I can speak to the metals and wood products industrys and they are direct opposits. A 40s erra metals plant would be totally dependent on outside power. A loss of Peak capacity even if not in their area would effect them greatly as they tend to purchase excess capacity for economic reasons (they use huge amouts of power and it is their primary cost). A 40s erra wood products plant is pretty much dependent only on Rail transport. The only major input is logs. They produce all of their power (if the form of steam and electric) on site as a byproduct of the processes they use. They will generaly produce excess electric and sell it and will be colocated with other plants that can utilse the excess steam. These are generally chemical plants because the wood plant generates a lot of chemicals as waste which a chem plant will use as feedstock.

Without looking at other industrys this leads to Alum being severly effected by power loss and chem being very power resilient.

I will also note that wood products (a very important stratigic industry) is not represented at all. And no that is not a call to revamp the game to include it. Just a comment. [:)]

As to what needs to be done:

I don't think the BoB was long enough for an attack on power production to have been meaningfull. If it is a valad target type then a level of targets that is indicative of the true capacity of the power industry is needed. Else, simply make them non attackable or make them repair very fast.

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL:
Industry would have back up, yes, but back up for lights and other things, not enough to run the factory, if they did, they wouldn't need the powerplants to start with

I seem to remember a similar discussion on the BTR forum, I'm sure JC said that various German industrial sites had their own independent power generation facilities (enough for production to continue). I'm sure at least some UK industrial sites would have had an independent (from power grid) generation capability in 40/41.

von Shagmeister

[Nikademus]

wow....BTR makes for a great training tool. Starting my first BoB game and it seems easy in comparison....so fewer targets and forces to plan for.....ahhhhh [;)]

There wasn't a "JC" version of BoB was there? downloaded the 1.02 patch

[Hard Sarge]

No, JC was thinking about it, OB is working on one

but the 1.02 patch is the last thing that was released for it

[otisabuser2]

Hi all,

what sites ( BoB ) would be affected by 100% damage to power plants ?

I imagine most heavy industrial sites, like steel plants derive their main source of power ( heat ) from burning coal. It would make sense that they were able to generate enough electricity in emergencies to be self sufficient, in case of power cuts. I have read that certain plants sold off surplus electricity to the local grid.

Modern ( and not so modern ) public buildings like hospitals, police stations and schools have their own boiler rooms to provide light and power in case the supply is cut.

Other sites, like fighter bases can do without mains electricity, as long as the phones still work to order the scrambles and the fitters and riggers are able to provide enough locally rigged light to do their repairs and maintenance at night.

The railways are predominantly coal/steam.

I have not seen any references to the radar stations producing their own electricity on site. There is mention made of going off air due to power lines being cut by bomb strikes. They would require considerable electric power.

regards Otisabuser