Researching German A/C

[Roo]

There are some problems here with the research.

If the Germans can carry out research of advanced designs, why in heck can the Allied player not drag Whittle away from the Rover Car company and give him to, say, Rolls-Royce? The jet engine was delayed years by this decision.

As for the Meteor not being an anti-fighter plane, it wasn't used in the role, and I'm not sure on it's manuouvrebility, but given it's sucess in V-1 hunting I would at least expect it to be effective aginst bombers/jet bombers.

Finally, I very much doubt that the P-80 would have had serious problems with the engines. The prototype used the DeHavilland H1 turbojet, built in 1943. Given that the Whittle W2/7000 - the first Allied jet engine used to power an aircraft - was air-tested on 15th May 1941, there were some 2 further years of development, without the lack of alloys etc. that the Germans suffered.

[otisabuser2]

Adnan,

again you have used an example which actualy proves the opposite to what you intend. Though the M4 Sherman may have been kept in production until the war ended. That is not to say it was not improved. Aplique armour was introduced, heavier guns were added as a result of combat testing ( 76mm and 17pdr ). There was a more heavier armed Jumbo version as well as a 105mm howitzer version, that I can currently recall.

It was kept in the Allied inventory, not through stupidity, but through necessity. There were thousands of them equipping just about every Allied armoured division. It would not have been possible to produce 3000 alternatives overnight and introduce them during an intensive campaign. Other tanks were slowly fed in ( Pershings, Comets and Centurions ).

The Sherman suited the Allied doctrine, which persistantly beleived the war was going to be over shortly.

The case was slightly different for the Allied airforces, where there was always a diversity of planes. Squadrons were far removed from the battle-line and it was easier to slot in new types.

I do agree with you, that having a policy where an Axis new plane type automatically means the Allies will have a new one is wrong. As you say, it make the whole point of Axis research somewhat pointless.

We have some nice alternatives though.

regards Otis

[von Shagmeister]

[/quote]

for some of the other stuff, we will be able to have the A and B groups for the VIII FC, and we should also be able to add in the A and B groups for VIII BC also, that all but doubles the US numbers (well, doubles the VIII at least)

Hi Sarge,

Effectively USAAF heavy bomb groups are already flying 'B' Groups. At the moment you can put up 32 a/c, in reality operations normally consisted of 18 a/c per group (as well as flying spares to fill in gaps caused by technical aborts) - 6 a/c per Sqn with a 4th Sqn rested every op. If it was an maximum effort squadrons would try and put up 7 or 8 a/c and composite groups formed from the 4th Sqns from each group but these maximum efforts where few and far between because of the strain it imposed on the maintenance and servicing.

Other than the above knit picking point this is a very interesting discussion, pros and cons on both sides of the argument.

von Shagmeister

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Roo, the question of what-if is allways difficulty to answer.
The Whitlle will develop a jetengine 3 years earlier because he change company could be countered by "what if his mother never had met his father"... i agree, what-ifs are allways a problem
But to say "i wish the allies had an jetengine fighter in the war cause the evil krauts had em" is err, slightly missing the point in the game.

The Meteor was basicly a bad plane with two jet engines... so it was inferior to allied piston engine planes.
It was useful as a platform to learn more about jetplanes and it was able to shot down V1-missles.
If we had axis bombers in the game it could be used as a bomberkiller. But because we have em not in the game what purpose could it have ? The range is to short, the durability is laughable, the engines make trouble (like any jetengine in this stage of development) and its manouverability is like a stone - zero. So just drop the idea of the Meteor in the game (cause it is basicly "bombers and fightercover vers fighters" with the fighters on the axis side and they have better jet engine fighters as the Meteor [:D])

For the P80.... this plane was possible because the brits shared their knowledge about jet technics in 1943... it was developted very quick, but it had its fall backs. They managed to bring some prototypes in the air - the german prototype of Me262 fly in Spring 42... so this means nothing.
And belive it or not, the allies were 1 year behind the germans in jet technics and aeordynamics.

But we surely could do the What-if "Timewarped F22 slaughter german airforce in 1939" - the question what this is worth for this game and the existing problems (too many german planes, too fast developemet, etc...) is another point

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Otisabuser2,

the sherman is a hot iron [:D]

My point is: The allies had better tanks (for both purpose) but did not produce em by ignorance and the tank crews payed for it.

Everthing else is just a point of view. So just let us say we hae no agreement about this [;)][:)]

[otisabuser2]

Adnan,

My point is: Two of the examples you give to demonstrate your point of Allied lack of development, are in fact false. The Spitfire and the Sherman WERE both actually updated, and as a direct result of combat experience.

I am not denying that there were better tanks the Allies could have used.

The Allies had secret weapons in development as much as the Axis did. Development was often slowed or halted because there did not seem to be the need for them.

Remember, the Allies were expecting the war to be over shortly, once Overlord happened. The Germans on the the other hand were determined to fight on. This meant that the Allies saw little point in developing many new aircraft that were going to be surplus after the war.

On the other hand, had new German wonder weapons arrived which looked like stalling the Allied offensive, things would have been very different from the Allied development perspective.

[Hard Sarge]

LOL
we need to drop the M4

but...

you over look a lot of things about the M4, in the long run, the GE wished that they had it, it was relieable, it could travel, most armies had to carry there tanks to where they wanted them to be, off load them, and then attack, and the battle was over

on paper, the M4 is much better then the MAIN ge tank, the Mk IV, just the 75mm gun on the GE tank is better, but, between the M4 and Mk IV, either lands a shot, it is a kill

of course, the MK V was better, it was better then almost anything, Med and Heavy, the MK VI should not be used as a compareion tank, it was a super Heavy and was a monster, which the M4 was not designed to fight

funny you mention the SU tanks being better, funny, how many T-34's were made and yet, by the end of the war, the SU were still in need of tanks ? , it was a super tank, but they lost them by the 1000's, and in the end, 10's of 1000's

but as I say, bad comparions

the P-47 was out classed ? by what ? A plane that might of been ? , which as I already said, the P-47 H was faster and the XP-72 would of been faster yet, but they wern't needed and so were not built

I would like to see the Tempy and Tempy II bought into the game and work

which if push came to shove, what about the navel planes ?, the F4u4 would of made a mess out of anything the GE put into the air, outside of the 262, and the 262 still couldn't fight the F4u, we would also of been able to add the Bearcat, what GE plane could of came out of a Dogfight with that ?, and for the attack side, what about the Skyraider ? most people forget that was a WWII plane, that came too late to see action, we also got the Tigercat, or the F-82

[Hard Sarge]

for the Do-335

in the game I believe it is a much better plane then it would of been in real life, it was a poor flyer, it had trouble staying level, it liked to porpoising and snaking

they had trouble with the twin engines air flow, the 2nd engine was higher then the 1st and the airflow from the first gave trouble

the top speed was 477, but the sustained speed was 413 (HARDly a world beater)
(don't forget, a lot of your WEP were added to give you a chance to live, you ruined the engine if you used it, but it got you out of trouble)

about 90 were made, 60 flew, 20 made it to combat units

so, to all intents, it should be a fanasay plane, or at least, very HARD to reseach and build in numbers (if you want it in numbers, you got to pay for it)

{which I should tell you, I love the 335 in the game, it is a monster}

[Hard Sarge]

now this is scary

Grumman engineers included a novel feature into the design of the Bearcat's wings. In the event of excessively high "G" loads during maneuvering, the wingtips would break away to allow the shortened wings to safely withstand a higher "G" factor. The folding portion of the wing was designed to fail at half the distance to the tip if the plane exceeded 9 'G's." Problems with this system led to the addition of explosive bolts along the separation line, If only one tip separated, the explosive bolts would assure that the opposite side was ejected also. This would allow half of the aileron area to remain, but greatly reduced the stress on the balance of the wing structure permitting it to withstand even higher forces.

yuck, and the experts complain that the 109 pilots didn't like the slats on the 109 opening and closeing during a turn, how about just blowing off the wing tips instead [:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

The Meteor was basicly a bad plane with two jet engines... so it was inferior to allied piston engine planes.
It was useful as a platform to learn more about jetplanes and it was able to shot down V1-missles.

What do you base this on? Inferior in what respect? It was a big twin engine fighter, and not as agile as a Spitfire. It had a few bad habits (poor low speed single engine handling), but remained in production until 1954, even though Vampires were available. It was only superceded when Hunters came in (an undeniable improvement, but a generation on in experience)

If we had axis bombers in the game it could be used as a bomberkiller. But because we have em not in the game what purpose could it have ? The range is to short, the durability is laughable, the engines make trouble (like any jetengine in this stage of development) and its manouverability is like a stone - zero. So just drop the idea of the Meteor in the game (cause it is basicly "bombers and fightercover vers fighters" with the fighters on the axis side and they have better jet engine fighters as the Meteor [:D])

You are falling in to the trap of highlighting all the defects of one side, and ignoring those of the opposition. The Meteor was a far more 'finished' aircraft than the 262, and yes, it had poorer performance, however it was FAR more reliable, and suffered far less from engine handling restrictions. The Mk2 had a far better engine than the 262 in terms of reliabilty and materials technology (due to materials shortages in Germany). The Mk3 went some way to address the speed differential.

For the P80.... this plane was possible because the brits shared their knowledge about jet technics in 1943... it was developted very quick, but it had its fall backs. They managed to bring some prototypes in the air - the german prototype of Me262 fly in Spring 42... so this means nothing.
And belive it or not, the allies were 1 year behind the germans in jet technics and aeordynamics.

You might be correct in terms of aerodynamics, but you are generalising for the jet techniques. They were using the axial compressor in service before the Allies, and you could call that advanced. The 262 might have flown in Spring 1942, however that was the flight that started with 2 jets and ended with zero working. The first 'real' flight was July 1942, and that was the start of a very difficult development programme for the engines. I have been trying to find my sources, but have failed so far. You will have to rely on my memory. The Jumo 004 had an overhaul life of only just over 10 hrs to start with. The Derwent (IIRC) had 100 hrs to overhaul. Even 100 hrs is terrible (although most piston fighter engines only flew about that much before something finished them). The life of the 004 means that a large fleet of 262 aircraft would have needed a small army of support vehicles to keep them in the air. Do not under-estimate this when thinking about 262 on the game! The issue the game misses out entirely is the difficulty of supporting the 262 (AND 163). They ought to draw huge ammounts of German industrial output and transport just to keep flying let alone increasing to the numbers we can see, and people think the Ge should build!

[Denniss]

Research should be somehow limited to maybe 6 months earlier arrival as max.(maybe even only four months).
Some trigers should be included, you'll need the Fw 190D-9 to be able to research the Ta 152H (and Ta 152C if it's included). Maybe the Fw 190D-13 should be included, pairing the D-9 airframe with the Ta 152H engine.
A similar trigger should be needed for Bf 109G-10 and K-4 requiring the G-14 as being available (G-14 = late-war G-6), without G-14 it should be the G-6/U4, the G-6 with 30mm MK 108 engine cannon, AFAIK available early 1944.
Several factories available and researching planes like the Me 163 should be changed to be delayed, just in time (or 1/2 months earlier) to production start of this specific model. This simulates they had to develop this beast but with war ongoing interest in this beast dropped so factory will then be available for other things.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Look,
the question was not "The Meteor, crap as crap can be" but "The Meteor, useless in BTR cause the Jets in the timeframe are no improvement for allied "problems" with german wonderweapons"

The Afterwar-Meteor could be a fine plane, the inwar-jet wasn´t. It was to slow, its range was to short, its manoverability was like a stone. So from the allied point of view, what could i do with this plane in the game ? Nothing. So forget it. If german bombers would be ingame it is another story. But how could Meteors be Aircover for allied bombers, how should they intercept attacking jets ? Zero chance.

For the "Advantage" of german jet technics, it is difficulty to say how large the gap was, cause after the war the allies used just in time the german knowledge. So how could one say what was "german knowledge" and what not ? I do not say cause the germans were germans they were superior (like some others do for the german or the allied side), but cause they know they were behind allied piston engine development they searched for new engines to close the gap and overtake the allies. And they did.

So any jet-miracle for the allies based on afterwar knowledge is difficulty to measure cause of german input. Esp. in highspeed-aeordynamic the difference was huge. And the thinking "we (the allies) would

For the maintenence of Jum004-Engines, they start with 10 hours and ended (with the bad supply situation in 45) with 90 hours. if we would play history 1:1 i would agree, that the first jets should have low readyness. But - this game is no 1:1 - simulation. So if the allies do not hit this or that, do not hamper this production or bomb that facility, this speed up comes quicker. But how quick ? I can´t say. But still in real life, the germans produced 1400 Me262 - with all limitations. That is fact. And if the german side manage it to mount these jets with experienced pilots and has fuel this means nightmare for the allied side. Esp. if they are all equipped with the R4/M-Missles... that means "showtime" for any bombing raids. Not cause of fanboyhood but cause of realism.

As i wrote, one main goal of allied gameplay should be a high AS. With an intact german airforce in Spring 45 the allied bomber-losses should explode. It exist no defence against hight speed missle attacks - the cover is to slow to engage em, the bombers are sitting ducks.

For the date the jets could be "in the game"... after all we allways can just estimate such date, but many historicans say it could be 6-12 months earlier and - even more important - the production number at the start could be much larger. Just think about the "better" fuel, you could use low level fuel instead of highoctane kerosine. History ist history, but any compareable jet in the game for the allies should be not earlier as april 45.

That is my opinion, based on every source i read in the last 20 years about jet fighters.
And for the game, the most important question is "how could it handle this". As i wrote, the numers of flying german planes are just silly. In true life such numbers would have changed the war - just look at the Schweinfurt Raids, the germans concentrated 300 (or less) fighters to attack. In the game you could mount 2000 fighters to attack the bombers.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

The Spitfire was improved, all the time - here we agree 100% A great plane with potential was tuned to its very limits. One highlight of pistonengine planes.
But i said that they did it anyway to improve it and to achieve more superior weapons. They did not say "Hi folks, we have here the 20% better Spitfire XXXXVI but we are fair and do not produce here cause this is against fair play". The brits throw in any "better" weapon they could build. So any plane that could be in combat for the brits later as July 45 are useless, any plane in combat service in may 45 could be in the game for 3 months. How much planes could the brits produce in this time ? How many missions will the brits fly in em ? Hope you see the point about it. And if you jump 1 year (say from june45 to june44, then produce 3 months to september 44 this would no longer be historical (not even slightly)

The sherman (yeah - i love it) is a really good point.

It was a bad design - based on the opponent. On paper back in Washington, it looked good. And they never really understood what happened. 4 Shermans against a panther... oops.. lost 4 tanks (if they could not escape fast enough)

So, yes they improved the sherman (they had or otherwise they would have huge problems), but it still was an inferior tank. even the 76er. and even against the markIV. But many german tanks were no markIVs... i look from now - without the "national" glasses to excuse mistakes.

Sure, the allies expected the war over after invasion - but how fast could they react if in game the things went bad say in April 44 ? Do they draw 1000 Jets or 2000 ÜberP47 out of the hat ? I do not think so, they can´t. Even if we ignore the (sherman is here the perfect example) ignorance (cause german ignorance in plane production is ignored too by the game) - you need still time to develop new planes - and if they had halted them, they need time to finish em.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, it depends how you use it.

It is a bomber/recce-killer. Nothing more. But it is fast enough to avoid the air cover and it is durable enough to absorb some hits. For that it is perfect. As a fighter killer it would be wasted. But honestly, i never researched it. I allways preferred the Ta152H in combo with the me262... one for the fighters, one for the bombers.

It could have be a great nightfighter but that is really fantasy (and i think the nightfighter should not be in the game)

[Adnan Meshuggi]

you did not drop it... hehe.. okay, one last comment to the sherman (anything else is waste of ammo)

The sherman was reliable, it was a tank that "worked". But honestly, as a tanker i give a s$i1 about this if i am dead in combat.

And my point is not, that the american doctrine and the sherman suited well, but that this doctrine and its main tank sucked. (for the tank crews at last). Instead of improvement in doctrine and tanks they improved the doctrine. sure, it worked with the airforce and artillery, with less german infantry. But the point is, german tanks vers. shermans mean a lot dead american tankers. Surely exist some other examples.
But this is my focus. The allied hqs learned latest in spring 43 that the sherman was no match. But did they at last produce every second sherman with the 76er ? Or bring in 2000 T26s in Summer 44 ? No - ignorance and arrogance hampered the hqs. And the germans had Tigers... yes - you can not compare sherman with tiger, but the allies had to use em againt tigers simpy because they had nothing better. So why should this be different in the air ? That was my point.
And with this i will leave the hot iron to cool down (cause it is gladly no important thing for the game)

For the russian tanks - well the t34 was better as the mark III and IV, the 85er was better as any IVer and could be compared with panther. It was reliable.
And even then the russians prohibited tank battles in summer 44 - they said it is a job for the anti-tank-guns. Cause the tank is one part, the crews, the officers and the hq-comanders are another part (the much bigger one).

Same for airplanes... russian fighters were good. Many were superior to their german counterparts. And still the loss ratio is vastly for the germans.

my opinion is, that nearly any game does not bring in the knowlege/experience factor correctly.... we have all these numbers and facts about planes or weapons. But the deciding factor is the human. So, in BTR-Terms, average should be 40, bad between 5-10, crack 50-60 and only a very few elite pilots should be in the 70ties (or 80ties)

For the Corsair - it would not be an improvement. And, honestly it is the most overrated plane in nearly any game.

The bearcat ? Nice to have - but as the ally i preferr to get this p47 and p51-version [:D]

But one big bug in the game should be elliminated. Aircover against highspeed jets isn´t possible (like the game do it). They pass, fire rockets, fly away, turn and fly another attack and then they leave. Against this the air cover does not exist. (Only a small chance if a jet has trouble) In the game the p47 could intercept em. How ?

Oh, a last thing.

From the german perspective, the idea with Ta152H is, to bring the bombers and fighters "down" into the 20000s feet area. So your FW190 and Me109 have better performance.

The Jets should kill the boxes and create stragglers (with the rockets)

if the ally player react he is forced to fly low level (to reduce the speed advantage of the jets) but this means flak bait.

From the allied perspective, i try to kill as much german planes as possible. the whole point system (you have to create this or that point level) could be thrown away. Only mandatory levels (like sub pens) should be in the game. But do the allies stop the air war if they fall 3 weeks behind shedule in december 43 ? (bad weather for example?) no.

[Hard Sarge]

AS you say, one hassle with games and in some of your responses

you/game is looking at the stats and see them as if they are the only thing in effect

M4 vs Mk V or Mk VI is in big trouble, but not very often, did they go one on one (or 4 on 1)

you run into some Mk V's in the treeline, you call in arty support, and then call in the Cab Rank, then you tried to flank with your tank hunters

(in Italy, the GE started to bury the Mk V's so only the turret was showing, tests showed the only way to "kill" it was to call in Arty strikes, and wait for the crew to bail out and leave)

same with the 262, it was fast, but it couldn't shoot when it was going fast (couldn't aim), so most pilots slowed down to fire, when it slowed down, the gun turrets on the bombers could track it and the fighters could catch it, end of the speed advantage

the Ta 152, may of been great if it ever got to high alt, which it pretty much never did, in fact, in the end, it was used as low to med cover of the 262 AF's

yes, the GE built 1400 some 262's, but where were they ? , in caves and in forests, alot of good they did

Pilot exp does not seem to work right, it has been in the lists of things to check for a while now

I agree, too many GE planes can be used, how can the GE put up 2000 NF's

and again, I am not saying the Allies were trying to play fair and not bring this or that plane into action, the Allies didn't need to bring them into action, for the most part, there was no action

the AirWar in the ETO was pretty much from 43 to spring of 44, after that, it got pretty slow, were most of the Airdefence was carried out by Flak, when the GE could or when they had to, they tried to contest the raids, but most times, they just got hammered, each time they tried to save up planes for there massive attack plan, they were wasted

the raids on Berlin and the raids on Oil plants, drew the LW up and they were bled white doing so

[Adnan Meshuggi]

first, i hope i do not sound to "unfriendly" or offending. Just let us switch to german and everything will be easier for me [:D]

As is said, it is a point of view (no, i do not say the s-word) with these special tank

For the airwar in the ETO, in History, the war was over in may 44. That is true.

But we speak about a game and alternate history cause the hindsight.

My opinion is
a.) change the experience, drastical downgrade it, make exp. raising difficulty and make a big factor (tripple it) out of it.
So beside the planes you need good pilots. With this the "experten" are more worthy, the average german recruits are awful and the good american pilot training pays off
b.) Interception of planes has to be rewritten.
You may be true (or not) about the speed issue on the me262, as far as i know about it, this is not true (only in the very begining the germans used the "good old head to head" encounter, but with this speed gap was just too high), so they made "from behind" attacks with full speed that made them invulnerable against the Air cover and the defence fire from the bombers was limited too.
c.) esp. with the jets coming active the allied side should have special "air strip" attacks, so they follow the jets and attack the landing jets.
d.) half the numbers of german planes able to fly - these numbers are just silly. On paper they may have exist but if the germans in history had had such numbers of planes and pilots air war had ended in that moment.
Your numbers (80-90 fighters vers. 800 bombers and 1100 fighters) sound more realistic. (mid/late war)
In the begining the germans have more (or the allies less) fighters and if the german player is good, he should have more planes. but not the numbers we had in the old btr.
e.) operational losses should be higher - own flak losses lower, esp. if the planes try to land on the own base. If this is a bug, kill it and rise the ops losses. How often got a group of german planes, landing on the own base get ripped by aa fire ? In game one day has higher losses as in the whole war.
But with the poor pilots, often they jumped out because this was safer as to land a slightly damaged plane.
f) Land war should be really rewritten. I could withdraw any plane from italy to france and the allied bombed the hell out of the divisions but nothing happened.
On the other side i had a game against the ai i dominated the sky. The allies were not able to attack any location in france but still invaded 2 weeks EARLIER in the normandy. How should this happen without air superiority ? (i even allowed the brits their night bombing so they do not loose by points.)
g.) Weather: we should have a huge impact by weather. Both sides. Heavy wind will make hits nearly impossible, fog will kill a lot unexperienced german rookies, the weather is not affected by the last bombing raid and so on...
h.) Repair-time and spare parts.
For the germans, they should need spare parts to produce and accidents should be built in. Say late war production sucks so sometimes a me109 in a hard g-turn break in parts...
For the allies, allow to canabilize the planes if necessary, so some will be destroyed but you get extra spare parts to repair faster (you could decide or generally decide to do so)
i) Leading of german planes to or from the enemy.
Well, it is not 2006 but i allways hated the "german planes try to catch the returning enemy until gas has burned but the next straggler will escape"
Short for: the germans should be able to give new orders at any time, also they can land at any "next" base (but next 10 hours will miss cause they need to be transfered back) so the range issue is not so terrible as in the original btr. Nobody can tell me that if i start in Zwischenahn and try to catch at the north sea, i have to return the whole journey instead of hunting down a few more bombers and land at a nearer Base.
j) Did i mention the germans have far to many planes ?
k.) the allies need (for american planes only) a secret hidden pool, in that for any plane produced one will be put. Say you produced 700 B17, so the pool has 700 B17 of the newest model. These are "reserve planes" in the USA. Randomly (if some loss ration will be too high) planes from this secret pool will be shipped to europe (or italy) so they booster up the empty pool)
This could help in the begining of a "german wunderweapon"-phase. High losses will be balanced out by more planes (the forgotten aspect is: if you have 1000 B17F but need 500B17G cause your B17F-Pool is full you get em) Same for fighters and medium bombers... this should help in numbers.
For the fatigude - for german fighters give em pervetin. If they consume it, they are 3 days active without fat, but are finished for one week after.

The moral should be in the game only for fighters or 2mots, but not for 4mots. Moral allways was low if you had to encounter german flak, so what do they mean with 99% Moral ? the bombers flew in a box and thats it. Every crew who would return (alone !) would be dead meat - so they fly to the target. For fighters (who active attack enemy planes) it is something different. But for 4mots ? forget it. At last for day attacks or make em "oops, we dropped to early our bombs" but not in breaking an attack.

k.) Sightings... please improve. I mean, clear weather, bomber attack against deep germany... how could they misinterpret so vastly ? How often you gave order to attack 200 bombers and after first contact only 20 were attacked and the rest escape, bomb and fly home untouched. Maybe let the numbers of german planes untouched if this is not redone (so the germans need all the extra planes to attack more as one enemy.
l) german formation size:
Me262 : first month 4, after that 3
any other fighter: 4
At last, they developted the schwarm/rotte-thing, so it would be nice if they can use it [:D]


For the Ta152H, i think i wrote that it was the best high altitude fighter in ww2, not best fighter in any alt ? The germans in history used em wrongly, but they were desperated and it was the best choice they had. But as a player i can give em different alts... [;)]

For the Me262-Numbers, 1400 were built, 860 were used. But many as bombers, recons or sat on the surface ready to be bombed in parts. But that was history and Hitlers "Blitzbomber"-order.

So, with reserach speed up, 2000 jets could easily be produced and used. With no great changes about historical correctness (if you have the fuel and the pilots to use em)

Oh, for the action-thing, yes i agree 100%. But the big question is for the what-if-aspect, how fast could the allies react for the case of "No bombers had survived the last three attacks and we lost 2000 crews ?"
If the game works "historical" with historical moves and historical results, even with more r&d no changes in allied production (beside numbers for "emergency") are needed. Only if they get kicked their butt so heavily that they are in danger to loose the war. But to put in Wunderwaffen on the other side is as wrong as to belive that the me262 in December 43 will win the air war for the germans (if the other industries and esp. the fuel industry) is destroyed.

But if the german is able to mount 300 jets with experienced pilots that attack 600 B17 with rockets, then the korean war black friday (was it a friday?) is only a small thing (97 killed b29s?) against this slaughterhouse party. Even if you have 1000 P51H to cover em. For bombers is no defence against jets.

As the german side i try to do this.
As the allied side i try to be so good to avoid it.

And if some players could do it cause their counterparts are bad or they are so genius, they deserve the results. They earned em [:)]

[The Dude]

So at the end of all this discussion are we going to give the Allies Shermans[8|]

[Hard Sarge]

over all, still think we are talking what if's and could of beens

the Ta-152 may of been the best high alt fighter of the war, nobody knows for sure, it was only after the war tests, that showed it could of been a great plane, not action during the war

agree with the 262 and the rear attacks, but even then, most GE pilots still had to slow down to be able to aim, they didn't have the predicker sights, and carried slow fireing cannons in a fast plane, HARD to aim, over all, more 262's were lost in air to air combat, then they shot down, and a number of Experten were shot down, while flying it (Galland ? he get shot in the leg while in the air or during a straffing attack ???)

as I said, Exp is being looked at, hopeing to have combat reviewed, believe Fat is not working the way it was intended

ground combat is suppost to be reworked (a lot of that got left out, we hope to put some of it back in)

hmmm, thought the time line for landings and what not was based on score ? maybe you had a really bad die roll come up, most GE players say they see D-Day happen late (I never made it that far as GE)

landing at anybase, lots and lots of talk on this,for years now, not sure how to have it work, but it is being looked at

(I really hate to lose plane after plane to 10% cloud cover at 11,000 ft over my landing strip, when the rest of England is cloud free)

we need VS to start jumping in about GE numbers

[wernerpruckner]

Hi Adnan,
I think I have to play the troll [:'(]

add a:
experience goes down during the game ( and amount of losses ) for the Germans during all of the game - in 1945 most of your newbie pilots are around 20 to 25 exp ( depends on total losses - overall can be up to 30 or down to 15 )

add b:
maybe I am to dumb - please explain that one again

add c:
?? plan your raids the right way and you will often enough massacre the German LW units during landing.
Also there is a build in in the escort routine => often enough high lvl high morale escort units will follow breaking off Germans back to their A/F and cause havoc !! ( you will see this more often in late 44 and in 45 !!)

add d:
why ?? what for ???
if you play your cards right, the Allied will have 6 to 10 AS in autumn of 44 !! ( in a vs AI game - in PBEM the Allied player will be happy to go up to 5 at any time )
Also plan your raids to distract the German interceptors......

add e:
oparational losses - I agree with you ( you see I am not a total troll [;)] )
but: a way back many people complained about the high lvl of operational losses in BTR - so they wont be happy

add f:
yes and no - the routine was rewritten in on of the first patches.
I do not think that BTR should concentrate on pure ground attack for a victory !! By the way I do not think that that one would have worked in RL.
I think it is okay that the invasions/breaktrough can be advanced or delayed for - lets say - 4 to 6 weeks; but that should be all.
BUT: during the retreat you can speed your ground wins up with ground attacks ( if that makes any sense to you !)

add g:
weather modell of BTR is one of the worst !! ( even Europe ablaze by SSG back in the 80ies had a better weather simulation )

add h:
nice idea, but I do not think that will work

add i:
we ( especially VonShagmeister ) complained about that very often.
The Germans did use forwarded A/Fs very often throughout the war.
It would be great to bring that one into the game ( also for the Stukas in BoB)

add j:
no you did not [:'(]
by the way to counter RL we should have 18 A/C Staffeln for certain Gruppen from summer on and / or Gruppen with 4 Staffeln!!

add k:
???? The Allied have more than enough A/C to waste throughout the war !!!

add ??? morale ??
are you nuts !!!!

add k the second one:
??? please explain again ??

add l:
I´d say nearly never 3 , always twos or fours !!

add Ta 152H:
a different model for the flying physics would be great !!

add Me262s:
I do not understand the panic, they are only great with experten units or in 1945 with those infamous new rockets [:D]

add speed of research:
you can always play with houserules
what if is playing can be great also you will not be happy with a pure jet LW in BTR

Even if you have 1000 P51H to cover em.

not true, with the right planed escorts&raids you will eliminate at least 50 to 100 of the attacking Swallows !!