@Richard: I have corrupted a SAV for you

[MarkShot]

This dawned on me when I realized that I was doing simultaneous raids on Kenley and Biggin. I should have had extra fighters for Biggin, but I could not find them for Kenley; even though they are side by side.

So, I began to play with things deleting missions to free up fighters. But despite deleting the missions fighters were not being returned to the pool of untasked squadrons. I first tried exiting the scenario back to the main menu thinking it might be memory and a runtime error. That did not clear the situation. I tried exiting the game process. This also did not clear the situation. So, whatever it is, it is in the game's book keeping data structures. There are squadrons that the game has marked allocated and never returned to the free pool. These squadrons cannot be recovered for use. A pretty serious bug.

See save attached.

[simovitch]

Mark, I downloaded your save and tested this. I was able to cancel a raid and get the full allotment of fighters back to use on a new raid, either fighter sweep or escorting a bombing raid.

Remember you can only escort bombers within the same Fliegerkorps, is that what's happening?

Maybe it got fixed since the last patch, I'll check it out maybe later today.

[MarkShot]

Richard,

I did not consider the whole OOB thing on the LW side. Since on the British side, you have group -> sector -> field -> squadron, but it seems no one owns an inbound raid and whoever Fighter Command chooses to assign at the group level to a raid will attempt to comply.

So, I assumed that the organic structure of the LW was not the same thing as the dynamic structure of raiding. My mistake. This may well have been my problem. Short of making a copy of the LW OOB and putting it on my wall, how do I construct raids which respect the organic LW command structure?

This is easier in in WITW and WITE-2 as I created directives for and AOG or Flotilla which the AI can allocate resources or I may manually assign resources.

Thank you.

[mark dolby]

Hi.
Most of the raids you plot should be nearest to the aircraft assigned which 'should' be from the same FliegerKorps. However, even at game start there are some units that are beyond the set limits of their parent formation. The LW was pretty bad at cross communication in planning, quite often 'the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing' scenario. Working within these parameters will become easier as you continue and manually move units closer to operate together.
The RAF was much more centralised in its C&C functions which actually allowed more freedom in allocation of defending units.
Mark.

[MarkShot]

Mark,

I know for games such as WITP-AE, Kull had spreadsheets covering 2 weeks setting up for turn #1.

Do you have anything comparable for LW field transfers for the the full BOB campaign?

Thanks.

The Other Mark

[mark dolby]

Hi Mark.
Sorry but those sort of things are way beyond the notes I take.

Mark.

[simovitch]

Richard,

Short of making a copy of the LW OOB and putting it on my wall, how do I construct raids which respect the organic LW command structure?

As Mark Dolby (one of our beta team members) alludes to, Luftflotte 2 and 3 each have their own fighter arm. Clicking the HQ of the fighter arm or the Luftflotte on the map highlights all of those bases which helps. You can move groups to any base you want and they will become attached to the new base HQ when they arrive. Get familiar with the OOB because the Luftflotte of the lead group you select in a raid dictates which escorts you can call on.

[MarkShot]

Okay. Thanks, Richard.

[MarkShot]

I guess I should have guessed that much. Although Gary's games don't really featured a pre-battle deployment like many war games, almost all games require some degree of OOB and resource preparation before you can embark on the battle proper.

I think WITP-AE may hold the all time record for set up about 2 weeks if you are smart and follow Kull's spread sheets. So, that you have freight and fuel distributed to all bases across the Pacific while making optimal use of vessels based on their range.

---

I have only played BOB as the LW. Now, playing the continental game I assume the line of bases is going to continuously be moving. Are you required to pull your squadrons back before your based get overrun? Or does the game automatically handle displacing squadrons who end up too close to the Allied advance?

Thanks.

PS: At moment, I have switched to WITW, but I will probably be back. Found some great map and counter mods, I wanted to try out.

[mark dolby]

Hi Mark.
Yes, you will need to move the units out of threatened airbases. Also to evacuate the flak guns as well. If a base is overrun the guns are lost but the unit is not lost, just it takes @20 days to reconstitute back into a viable unit in Germany. Note, Italian units overrun before the Italian surrender will not reconstitute but are forever lost along with those that surrender.

Mark.

[MarkShot]

Does the advance of the Allies follow a fixed schedule or it does it vary from game to game?

I have noticed that weather appears to some extent be dynamic.

Thanks.

[simovitch]

The initial invasions of France and Italy happen on the historical date and there is nothing you can do to change that.
With a little luck you can influence the timing of the breakout of Normandy and the westwall by bombing troops and supply lines. Same in Italy with the Gustav and Gothic Lines.

[MarkShot]

Thanks, Richard (and Mark too).

I am, at the moment, playing WITW.

Here is a problem I have compared to WITW/WITE-2, information on why things have happened in EDBTR is rather scant.

With two above games, there is a detail break down for each combat. Details on how actual CV values were computed including SU committed and reserves. Further a break down of each unit and its state: DIS, DAM, DES and how what weapons proved effective at what range.

I just feel that the outcomes of these air battles are rather vague. Was I out numbered? Were my fighters low on fuel and being hit as they RTBed? Did my fighters get suckered down to protect bombers and then hit by another flight of high altitude spits? Now granted, I have no doubt if I play long enough, I will happen onto the best techniques. Like I see AI planned missions will set the IP at right angles to the target. Also since the resolution is low is it best to try to zig zag in avoiding flak or am I more likely to scatter formation and defenders?

Of course, no doubt you are full advise as you have access to the code. I do think GG did a good job with this game, but its volume of information is sparse compared to later titles. I think this is more due to when it was coded than due to air combat as pilots were debriefed and tactics through out air war were fluid subject to change.

[simovitch]

I recently completed a WITP-AE campaign as allies-V-AI with 1-day turns and full china. Well, at least I made it well into 1945 with a major victory point total and control of the Philippines. I don't remember when I started it but I think it took almost 10 years to get to that point, playing it off an on. I wondered how many people who play WITP-AE really sit there and read those messages during the course of an air engagement, following the events of the battle as each flight of aircraft engages and breaks off, engages and breaks off... etc. I would still be in 1942 I I cared enough to do that.

But with the help of an in-game battle display or exterior tracking program and message reader for EDBTR I suppose you could have the option to go through all the detail over and over, bit by bit, but it will likely be someone besides myself that develops those tools for this game.

In my opinion what you do currently need to do in EDBTR is take the time to study the weapons database and figure out the strength and weakness of your assets and use them to your best advantage. As I dug into the code I was very impressed with the EDBTR combat mechanics that attempt to create the random swirling dynamics of an aerial battle, and in the process fixed some bugs and added some features that further refined the simulation. It is hoped that the integrity of the coding would be enough (for now) to know that the engagement between 2 aircraft types will be properly processed by the game.

If/when we progress into 1.07.xx I want to start developing pilot training and assignment-reassignment aspects, with perhaps some personalization and storytelling options. Maybe even add some new mission types or scenarios and enhance the information provided during playback. At the same time it would be easy to add some more info on the in-game messages and toggle message delay times etc. Except for the messaging, all of this would render current saves unloadable and for other reasons as well, this is all many, many months down the road.

[MarkShot]

Sounds like you have many fantastic ideas. A lot more than cleaning up bugs.

There have been a few air combat games that simulated larger air wars while allowing you to fly.

Red Baron 3D

EF2000

ADF22 Total Air War

Mig Alley

Battle of Britain

Falcon 4.0

I think the game needs some more immersion than the 4 or 5 lines of text an engagement can produce.

---

In most of the above you could just hop into an AI cockpit and view the action. Certainly that would be great for EDBTR. Richard and Mark, Good Hunting!

[MarkShot]

Here is another idea ... add debugging/logging statements for many dogfight conditionals. Not for user display, but logging. The user with a switch could enable these, and they would give a detail blow by blow of a fight. Not worthwhile for a whole game, but to better understand how a single fight takes place.

There is Macro facility in C. You label statements part of a macro like #DEBUG. These they statements only end up in the modules if the compiler or linker has the switch #DEBUG. Thus, you avoid always paying the high price of debugging statements, and you can release two EXEs EDBTR (normal).EXE and EDBTR (debug).EXE. The player could chose debug for some short single days to understand better what is going on.

What do you think? (another option to training missions)

[Zovs]

I think if all the combat reports could be exported or saved as a text file that would be really useful.

This is from one game:

***NEWS***
September 17th, 1944
The scenario begins.
Wolfheze has been reduced to ruins.
Axis successfully defend Wolfheze.
Grave has been reduced to ruins.
Axis successfully defend Grave.
September 18th, 1944
The 2nd air lift is ready.
Allied capture Son.
Axis successfully defend Grave.
Valkenswaard has been reduced to ruins.
Allied capture Valkenswaard.
Allied capture Grave.
September 21st, 1944
The 3rd air lift is ready.
Allied Turn 5 Overrun at 49,37 (Uden)

Allied Turn 5 Battle at 25,62
Allied approximate equipment and personnel losses - 0%
Axis approximate equipment and personnel losses - 3%
Attackers
3/ 86 Heavy Rifle Squad Yes
0/ 49 Medium MG Yes
0/ 79 Heavy MG Yes
0/ 13 Jeep Yes
0/196 Truck Yes
0/ 30 Halftrack Yes
Defenders
0/ 15 Motorcycle Squad Yes
4/ 54 Rifle Squad Yes
2/ 2 Rifle AT Squad Yes
0/ 3 Heavy Rifle AT Squad Yes
0/ 6 SMG Squad Yes
0/ 4 SMG AT- Squad Yes
0/ 4 SMG AT Squad Yes
0/ 8 Engineer Squad Yes
0/ 24 Ferry-Bridging Team Yes
0/ 38 Truck Yes
0/ 24 SdKfz 251/1 Yes
0/ 3 Sturmgeschütz IV Yes

And from another game (these are text files that get spit out each turn):

Scenario: '1941 Campaign'
Turn 005 7-20-1941 Axis

Air Execution Log
_____________________________________________________________________

__________ Night 1 _________
__________ Day 1 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 0 ***
Axis planes repaired: 4
Soviet planes repaired: 30
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 134
Germany: 1 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 0.
__________ Night 2 _________
__________ Day 2 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 1 ***
Axis planes repaired: 3
Soviet planes repaired: 1
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 101
__________ Night 3 _________
__________ Day 3 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 2 ***
Axis planes repaired: 0
Soviet planes repaired: 0
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 97
__________ Night 4 _________
__________ Day 4 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 3 ***
Axis planes repaired: 1
Soviet planes repaired: 1
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 97
__________ Night 5 _________
__________ Day 5 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 4 ***
Axis planes repaired: 0
Soviet planes repaired: 0
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 96
__________ Night 6 _________
__________ Day 6 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 5 ***
Axis planes repaired: 0
Soviet planes repaired: 0
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 96
__________ Night 7 _________
__________ Day 7 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Soviet intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Soviet planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 6 ***
Axis planes repaired: 0
Soviet planes repaired: 0
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 96

AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE STATISTICS DESTROYED DAMAGED DAMAGE POINTS SORTIES

[MarkShot]

Zovs,

That looks highly familiar! I wonder why?

[Zovs]

First snippet was from TOAW IV, second from WITE2