When will it turn BETA

[karonagames]

In a desperate attempt to get this thread back on topic (How on earth did it turn into cars????):

Thesaurus entry for "soon".

Synonyms or related words for this meaning of soon:

Soon and as soon as possible

soon adverb
within a short time from now

shortly adverb
soon, or happening only a short period of time after something

just adverb
soon, or at a particular time

imminent adjective
likely or certain to happen very soon

at the earliest/first opportunity
as soon as possible

any day/moment etc now
very soon

in the short run/term
during the period of time that is not very far into the future
in no time (at all)

very soon, or very quickly

approach verb
if an event or a particular time approaches, it will happen soon

soon adverb
after a short amount of time

On a serious note the word "Beta" is being used much more in recent development posts.

[HHI]

While we are all anxious to get our hands on this game, please note the complete absence of any AAR's with player USSR vs. German AI. I doubt that this is simply an oversight. After 70 years, the proper Barbarossa strategy is still the subject of great debate. It seems to me that GG must create multiple scripts to account for each of the strategies that are the subject of such debate with the ability to modify in reaction to the concentration of Red Army reserves.

At the center of the debate was the decision to send Guderian's Panzers south to envelope Kiev, viewed by many as a mistake by Hitler. But Hitler's decision was not taken in a vacuum. Many in OKH influenced Hitler's decision. The Red Army started the war with its most powerful mechanized forces in Ukraine. AGS was very hard pressed to continue the advance. What would have happened had the bulk of AGC panzers moved east? Numerous mechanized corps could move north to attack the very tenuous supply lines supporting the attack on Moscow, using the marshes to protect their western flank. Could AGS put enough pressure to make this impossible? Good question, huh.

So GG has to come up with an AI that can deal with this and all the other reasonable strategic options and then alpha test and retest and retest and do it in such a way that when it doesn't measure up when the game is released, it can be fixed without the horrors involved in WiTP. Sounds tricky and rather time consuming.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: HHI

While we are all anxious to get our hands on this game, please note the complete absence of any AAR's with player USSR vs. German AI. I doubt that this is simply an oversight. After 70 years, the proper Barbarossa strategy is still the subject of great debate. It seems to me that GG must create multiple scripts to account for each of the strategies that are the subject of such debate with the ability to modify in reaction to the concentration of Red Army reserves.

At the center of the debate was the decision to send Guderian's Panzers south to envelope Kiev, viewed by many as a mistake by Hitler. But Hitler's decision was not taken in a vacuum. Many in OKH influenced Hitler's decision. The Red Army started the war with its most powerful mechanized forces in Ukraine. AGS was very hard pressed to continue the advance. What would have happened had the bulk of AGC panzers moved east? Numerous mechanized corps could move north to attack the very tenuous supply lines supporting the attack on Moscow, using the marshes to protect their western flank. Could AGS put enough pressure to make this impossible? Good question, huh.

So GG has to come up with an AI that can deal with this and all the other reasonable strategic options and then alpha test and retest and retest and do it in such a way that when it doesn't measure up when the game is released, it can be fixed without the horrors involved in WiTP. Sounds tricky and rather time consuming.

I have probably run most AI vs. AI games in the WitE team... [;)]


I can tell you that I have seen Axis AI take Leningrad, take Moscow and even going south into the Caucasus... [:)]

I can also tell you that AI vs. AI games rather closely resemble the historic development of things as well (and I have run many many full 1941-1945 campaigns as well)... [8D]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Many many years ago when first WitP came out a friend of mine (Oleg - he posts here as well) run WitP AI vs. AI in after hours (i.e. when he left work and go home). It took many workdays nights and weekends but I still remember him saying that in the end the game was also rather historical in it's path. The WitP is Gary Grigsby game as well... [:D]

[HHI]

I wouldn't use WiTP as an example. The A/I in WiTP is absolutely pathetic and this is after rework after rework. The fact that A/I vs. A/I gave good results would sound encouraging if you didn't point out that this was also the case with WiTP. Obviously, A/I vs. A/I tests mean very little. There is still a lot of work to be done.

[sillyflower]

Once it's out I, and probably everyone else, will forget about the wait and judge it only by its quality. This is nothing compared to what Tantalus had to cope with.[:'(]
 
Anyway, at the risk of coming close to blasphemy on this site, with Civ 5 out in 7 days I shall be quite happy to wait until just before Xmas.......
 
The real wait will be for the western front version that can be run with WitE just like the old SSi boardgame, and maybe we will then be allowed to control production as well. Mwahahaha. Hopefully not before I retire in 5 or so years tho'.

[Neal_MLC]

Civ 5 is supposed to be pretty good and plan on using it as a filler until WitE comes out

[Joel Billings]

Other than the fact that we're awaiting the inclusion of the server based PBEM code, and some art, music and video files, you could say we're at beta. That's not to say there won't be changes made, but it's pretty much all there now, subject to ongoing tweaks and AI improvements (and some more data work for the 43 and 44 scenarios).

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Other than the fact that we're awaiting the inclusion of the server based PBEM code, and some art, music and video files, you could say we're at beta. That's not to say there won't be changes made, but it's pretty much all there now, subject to ongoing tweaks and AI improvements (and some more data work for the 43 and 44 scenarios).

I like the sound of that Joel, we are definately getting closer to release.
[8D]

My birthday is Christmas Eve so I am hoping I will be able to add this to my list of presents!
[:D]

[Captain B]

All I can say is YEE-Haw! I'm not waiting til Christmas. A couple of months ago when many of us so brashly suggested a late summer present of WiTE, I boldly told my Family, no Father's Day Gift, no Birthday Gift, and no Christmas Gift for me, but as soon as this comes out....The next day it had better be in my PC...

Thanksgiving weekend will not be football...it will be WiTE!!!!

[CarnageINC]

WOOT!  Thanks Joel for the update. [;)]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: HHI

I wouldn't use WiTP as an example. The A/I in WiTP is absolutely pathetic and this is after rework after rework. The fact that A/I vs. A/I gave good results would sound encouraging if you didn't point out that this was also the case with WiTP. Obviously, A/I vs. A/I tests mean very little. There is still a lot of work to be done.

Hopefully WitE AI will much better. Whilst I don't pretend to know anything about computers/AI programming, nor have I played WiTP, my experience is that AI does better with simpler games. WitE is essentally linear cf any Pacific game which will be truly 2D with the added complexity of different rules etc for naval. Also allowing eg little if any control over production, simple stacking rules and none of the whistles and bells of diplomacy etc in HOI3, should mean that the AI's job here is relatively easier so it should do a better job.

HOI3 is a claasic of a game ruined by being too big/complex that the AI can't even do the basics very well. Such a shame as I loved HOI1 and 2 and thought 3 would be the best game ever. (Sorry - perhaps I should not say that here). That's why although I would love to see WitE become WitW and combined into WiE I fear WiE would be less than the sum of its parts. I so hope I will be proved wrong given how fast AI is improving.

Anyone else old enough to remember the precursor to WiR? At least I think I think it was GG. IRRC. 64 bit, black and white army level and the Soviet winter offensive consisted of forming lots of armies into 2 rows charging headlong into a large lake and staying there. It was a maasive improvement over any previous strategy game. At least I can say that playing on the hardest level, I always destroyed every unit in the Soviet army by summer '42. I doubt many others reading this can make that feeble boast............[:D]

NB doing it playing Making History 2 doesn't count. My Poles would have done that by end of 1935 (sic) if I had not got bored and it was only on normal difficulty. Germany was conquered in '34. [>:]

[FM WarB]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Other than the fact that we're awaiting the inclusion of the server based PBEM code,

What is server based PBEM code? (I hope it does not mean that players will not be able to easily, directly exchange PBEM files.)

[Joel Billings]

You can use normal PBEM, which uses passwords for protection but otherwise has no "cheat" protection. Or, you can use Server PBEM where you log onto a server while you're playing. You can find players via the server and it will let people know if saved games are being reloaded multiple times. People at Slitherine that have used this system in their games are helping us get this system into WitE.

[SGHunt]

I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.   

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother?   It's only a game ([X(] - shock announcement!)

[PyleDriver]

Good point Stuart, trust is a huge factor. I'm not a computer guy my wargaming was a spread out board and hundreds of counters to soart out before I could even start. So if someone needs to cheat (there out there) then just find someone else to play. My only concern is I get airheaded while playing, moving all these peices and once in a while you think your moving a unit, only to find you moved the last unit a second time (sucks). So I go back to my last save and redo. Now thats going to show as a cheat, but it was just me being stupid...

[Sneer]

I have played a lot in pbem Witp and have never any single problem with trust ... i'm even surprised to see such discussion
there were some standard secure measurment that prevented reload / redo and it was fine

[Neal_MLC]

I think that most PBEMers are a trustworthy group of people.  Cheaters get found out real quick and are usually ostracized by the group. 

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

I think that most PBEMers are a trustworthy group of people.  Cheaters get found out real quick and are usually ostracized by the group. 

Cheaters and gamesmenship players, one and the same for me. Peeps who exploit the games move system or supply system or what they can do to get an unnatural or unrealistic advantage. [:-]

[KG Erwin]

After having struggled with Schwerpunkt's "Russo-German War" for awhile, I'm hoping that this game will be playable. Ron Dockal tried his best, but on my XP system it just doesn't work.

[british exil]

I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother? It's only a game ( - shock announcement!)

It's only a game? Then why do I find myself lying in bed at night wondering how to defeat my opponant? What tactics to use, when to stand, when to run, when to attack? When I get game situations and real life mixed up when I watch the news?

Driving on the roads and looking at the surroundings, thinking here would a great place to defend or a terrible place for my attack.

Good job it's only a game.

Mat