Totenkopf SS Division

[amatteucci]

Yes, there's a distinction between a war crime and a criminal government. But we have to consider that the German servicemen that carried out criminal (i.e. in violation of the international laws) orders emenating from the government or from their superiors were guilty as well because, according to the German Military Code itself executing and illegal order was a criminal offence.

In addition, there are many documented cases of German officers that refused to follow "criminal" orders and were neither prosecuted nor demoted for their refusal.

So, serving under a criminal government may explain but not fully justify the behaviour of many. Not that I'm implying that I would have had the courage and the moral resolution to make a stand against such orders, if I were in their place. Nonetheless, many had this courage and I'd be unfair to them id I'd say that the "right thing" couldn't be done.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

In addition, there are many documented cases of German officers that refused to follow "criminal" orders and were neither prosecuted nor demoted for their refusal.

And there are documented cases off German Officers and men being prosecuted also, and from the instances I've read about it all depends on two things:

Firstly, who your superior officers' were and their disposition towards such orders and

Secondly, regardless of the first, who was further up the chain of command and whether they found out or not.

As you say having the courage to refuse such an order may not lie in your own moral standing, but in what may have happened to others in your unit who previously disobeyed an order. Do not forget that it may not be only you who suffers but your family back home. I certainly think, I'm sorry to say, that If I was in a unit that always prosecuted men who disobeyed orders and it was between me and some poor Russian peasant, then the peasant would be on the losing side, after all in human nature one's first basic instinct is self preservation.

On the other hand if I was in a unit that never/rarely prosecuted then I dare say the peasant would have a good chance of dying of old age.

[amatteucci]

I'd also add that making such a stand after the summer of 1944 might have been more difficult than at the beginning of the war...

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I'd also add that making such a stand after the summer of 1944 might have been more difficult than at the beginning of the war...

You're quite right, when soldiers who had escaped after being cut off and who had lost contact with their parent unit were being hung from lamposts as deserters, the last thing that would go through my mind is "is this order legal".

[Theng]

As you say having the courage to refuse such an order may not lie in your own moral standing, but in what may have happened to others in your unit who previously disobeyed an order. Do not forget that it may not be only you who suffers but your family back home. I certainly think, I'm sorry to say, that If I was in a unit that always prosecuted men who disobeyed orders and it was between me and some poor Russian peasant, then the peasant would be on the losing side, after all in human nature one's first basic instinct is self preservation.

There is plenty of evidence that shows that officers in the same regiment where some followed and other's did not follow the Commissar Order were not treated differently. The same way, Ortskommandanten (the local Wehrmacht's Officer in charge) who did not cooperate with the SS to exterminate Jews on the East Front were also not subject to disciplinary action. The movie Der unbekannte Soldat (in English The unknown Soldier) based on the Wehrmachtsaustellung provides plenty of evidence. You can get it from Netflix pretty easily in the US. A lot of the Wehrmacht just went along or were active participants in the atrocities on the Eastern Front without the prospect of reprisals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung

[notenome]

ORIGINAL: Xian

Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen'

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight

And there is the Kommissar Order and other extermination orders that required all troops to either kill Soviet Kommissars upon capture and for the Wehrmacht to assist in the extermination and wholesale killing of Jews. The adherence to these orders were mixed throughout the German forces on the East Front. Many followed them, some delayed, some even refused to follow the orders. The very interesting thing is that nobody who refused to follow these orders were every court martialed or had other adverse consequences as documented by the Wehrmacht Exhibitions in Germany over the last 10 years, where many apologists and revisionists tried to keep the honor of the Wehrmacht clean.

Both sides were not "nice to each other". The treatment of Soviet POWs in German capitivity was despicable and the treatment of German POWs by the Soviets was not better. Of the 300,000 German solidiers that were captured by the Soviets in Stalingrad, 5,000 came back after the war. The rest "died."

All sides in World War Two, Germans, Soviets, Americans, even the British committed war crimes including the killing of Prisoners of War. Just look at the POW numbers that were captured in Normandy. Those were unmotivated, second line, soft troops, the POW rates were extremely low and not because they were such fanatical fighters.... It's just that history is written by the victors and their crimes get conveniently forgotten.

More than 600,000 women committed suicide in Berlin between May and December 1945 after the Soviets occupied Berlin and not because they were heatbroken because the Fuehrer was no longer with them. The wholesale, repeated rape and sexual abuse took its toll. Basically every female between the age of 12 and 80, east of the river Elbe suffered the same fate.

There are no heros in that war. Only shades of gray and some were better than the others, but all sides had black sheep just some had more than others, a lot more than others.

Guderian specifically states in Panzergeneral that he blocked the commisar order (amongst others) from ever being released to AGC troops, and couldn't for the life of him understand why the OKH hadn't done so to begin with.

[Pford]

Hehe. This thread reminds of that classical Mitchell & Webb routine: 'Skulls'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y