WitE 2

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

No - it is absolutely true.

I can state quite categorically that I have no existing contract or expectation of payment for my work on WitE2. I am first and foremost a volunteer and I do this in my free time because I enjoy doing so. I have a completely separate fulltime job. Volunteer effort is pivotal in delivering these games.

Owe, owe, double owe. I appreciate the work you put in to making these games, because I love them; however, it should never be the case that you are doing work, from which other people will profit, without compensation... unless you have a formal internship/externship arrangement, but even then I think these should always be paid.

Now having said that, fair enough. You have no control over the pricing, BUT you do have some control over the launch date since it is your work that is to be launched. [&o]

That's not to say that you should have any idea about when Matrix will ultimately accept a gold build and push it! And even if you did, you need not share it! I just want you to be aware that almost everything about this game totally relies on your, and the design teams, hard work.

Do not sell yourself short.

[Joel Billings]

Here's the situation Red is trying to outline. Matrix Games is the publisher of the game. 2by3 Games is the developer. There are 3 programmer/designers in 2by3 Games, Gary/Pavel/Keith and I act as the project manager on our games. Although Keith developed the original engine used in our games, he's made only a few contributions to 2by3 in a number of years, so really it's Gary and Pavel. Red Lancer (John) is one of a virtual army of "volunteers" that helps 2by3 Games create and test the games. Without these volunteers, the big, data intensive projects like War in the East would be virtually impossible to create. They help us because they have a passion for these kinds of games and get as much (or more) enjoyment out of working on these games as they do playing them. John started out working on custom scenarios for WitE, and then started helping us with other parts of the game with WitW. Gary and I are the only people working on these games full time, as everyone else either has a full time job, is a student, or is retired.

To me, Matrix is really the spiritual successor to SSI. In the 80s and 90s, my very biased opinion is that SSI was the dominant computer wargame publisher (if only by the number of titles published). With the sale and disappearance of SSI as a force in wargaming, Matrix took up the mantle around 2000. Like SSI (again, a thoroughly biased view), they do a great job supporting outside developers. Decisions re pricing and delivery dates are worked out cooperatively between Matrix and 2by3. It took us 4 years after the release of War in the East to complete War in the West. None of us thought it would take that long, but it did. Matrix didn't pressure us to release WitW before we felt it was ready to go. At a point we got the game into beta testing (not alpha testing), we started to think about a possible release date.

However, we never felt like we were rushed to release the product, other than our own desire to get the game in front of customers so we could start seeing some revenue and we could start seeing feedback to the game from more than the limited number of beta testers. These big projects require a lot of users before we can truly refine the game. Again, that doesn't mean the game isn't fun to play at release, it's just the reality that it will likely improve after release as the additional users will find bugs and push the game systems in ways that a limited number of testers never can. We appreciate that some people believe we are forcing customers to pay for the right to test an "unfinished game". Guilty as charged, and probably the only way these games get done these days (although we feel our "unfinished games" match up pretty well with "finished" games that are released with much larger development budgets). We do allocate a lot of time after release to improve and support these products. Even there, if we are lucky, volunteers come into play with additional support long after the time we can devote time and attention to the games.

Matrix does not discuss release dates and pricing in advance. Why should they? With online publishing there's no need to set a retail release date months ahead of time. It was retail that forced many games to come out before their time, lest a major pre-paid advertising campaign was wasted. As with any software publisher, Matrix has been burned before by products that were announced and then took years longer than expected to be completed. Better to wait and watch and see a game in beta testing. I wish I could tell you when WitE2 will be released, but I can't. I could give you a time frame, but it would be a pretty large one. With projects like WitE2 it's not unusual for the game to be in beta testing for a year (or more). We're not yet in beta testing (we are in alpha testing). That should give you a strong clue as to the likelihood of WitE2 coming out in 2016.

2by3 has a contract with Matrix for us to publish WitE2 with them, but the game will be published when both Matrix and 2by3 feel it's ready. Based on our past experience we will have no trouble agreeing to when that time is. And you can be assured that the release of WitE2 will be due in no small measure to the dedication of the volunteers that worked on the project, to whom we are indebted.

[Joel Billings]

As for other theaters, we are developing a system of Theater Boxes to represent other fronts in WitE2 (like Western Europe, North Africa). These boxes will have events that can be triggered based on what's in them. In theory we could remove these boxes and replace them with a playable map area in the future (thus moving from WitE to a multi-front game, but that's way off in the future). We currently expect that the game will be structured to allow historical flow of units between the map and the theater boxes for those that want to follow the "historical flow" (and most likely for the AI), while it can also be set to allow player management of the forces (with consequent impact on the events).

This system will take time to properly develop, but we feel it's the best way to deal with this going forward.

[STEF78]

Thanks for the explainations.

We are not in a hurry about the release of WITE2. Most of us aren't teenagers (Do teenagers play wargame?) so we can wait.

And for me WITE1 is still very fun. It's my best wargame purchase ever!

And when I will be fed up with WITE, I will deeply plunge in WITW. I bought it but didn't play more than 30 hours...

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Thanks for the explainations.

We are not in a hurry about the release of WITE2. Most of us aren't teenagers (Do teenagers play wargame?) so we can wait.

And for me WITE1 is still very fun. It's my best wargame purchase ever!

And when I will be fed up with WITE, I will deeply plunge in WITW. I bought it but didn't play more than 30 hours...

While I a haven't been a teenager in roughly 20 years I can tell you for a fact, using myself and old friends as evidence, teenagers did in fact play wargames 20 years ago. So I am sure there are some who do today.

RE: The other stuff

I'm not concerned about timing, and while I appreciate what Joe says, I still do not believe that it is ever appropriate for others to profit off of the uncompensated work of others. Globally speaking, I'd rather not have the games than see people "volunteering" their time and energy like this for no return; however, I'm the Matrix forum's only card carrying Marxist, so you should just expect that opinion out of me and ignore it--I am used to it! Otherwise, it's an even bigger wast of your time because you'll never convince me I am wrong. [:D]

[NotOneStepBack]

I started as a teenager with SSI in the late 90's. Panzer General was a great game. (So was Imperialism, guys, remake that game too ) I hope they still play wargames!

Panzer Korps still occupies my time today along with these titles.

30 years old now :/

[matt.buttsworth]

I started war-games with SSI North African War in about 1975. Then I tried their war in russia board game at university which was great fun. The only board game I did not like was their D day game as it was inevitably one sided. Who wants to play the Germans getting smashed more than once.
As for War In Russia. I played Wir on the Amiga when it first game out and then eventually on a Windows machine as well. After that I graduated to War in the Pacific, Gudacanal, and WITP AE and loved the game although I never actually finished it as the only game I almost one my opponent game up. (He had previously beaten me four times.)
I was very happy when WITE came out as I think like WITP AE it is a classic, and like both of them their is the possibility of either side to win and both sides get the chance to attack and defend during the game.
I have purchased WITW but like the SSI DD game years ago it is not much fun being German as you defend, defend, defend and die due to the historical reality of the game.
Regarding WITE and Barbarossa, WITE is much better I believe and Barbarossa in the first version suffered the flaw that Russian units were never reinforced meaning that constant warfare could destroy the Russian side if you kept attacking long enough and the stream of new Russian units was not great enough.
I am really waiting for WITE2 to come out and my only wish is that it would have a scenario of the Russians attacking first a la Suvorov (regardless of whether you like him or not) and based on the Zhukov/Vasilevski plan for initially layout as that would give the game a completely different possibilities without venturing too far into alternate realities.
I also note that in the latest update to Barbarossa they are allowing a free layout of German forces prior to turn one which I think is a great idea allowing German commanders to trial completely different attack plans.
I also remember in War in Russia Amiga days they had a very good system for the War in the West box so I look forward to it in WITE 2 as well as a good system for Russian forces randomly not moving in turn one to 3. That I feel would be a great improvement for WITE 2.
So keep up the great work. I love Gary Grigsby Games and the service that Matrix offers us ageing grognards to play such wonderful games, and to participate in improving them both in discussions on the forum and in playing as a alpha or beta tester which I would love to do.

Matthew Buttsworth

[morvael]

The game that started it all for me in 1990: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26293/kreta-1941

[orabera]

The two games that got it all started for me back in 76-77 (and still my all-time favorites):

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156 ... hird-reich

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/670 ... p-troopers

[morvael]

My friend (older than me) owned Rise and Decline of the Third Reich for a very long time, and gave it to me a few years back, counters still unpunched [:)] So I have this game.

[Manstein63]

My first board wargame was called Lost Battles bought as an impressionable 14 year old so many years ago I also had a commodore 64 for which I bought SSI's Carriers at War as well as a Battle of Britain game by the same company. then when I upgraded to Window's 3.1 I bought a copy of Gary Grigsby's War in Russia had endless fun playing that game.
Manstein63

[GPT55]

My first war game was Avalon Hill's Gettysburg, the one with squares rather than hexes, which I started to play in about 1963 (age 7). My older brother needed an opponent. A year or two later I got Avalon Hill's Stalingrad game, and I've though the WW2 East front was the most interesting war game subject ever since.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Here you have a strategy games playing teenager
I started with Joni Nuutinens series for android smartphones (which i recommend very much for casual and mobile play, very good and deep for mobile games, you can find them on the play store), but now i will switch to war in the east for professional wargaming.

[morvael]

I think you're more of a minority in your age group, than I were in mine [:)]

[STEF78]

As teenagers, we were already a minority.... there was more roleplaying (ADD, Middle Eearth Role Playing...) than wargaming.

[morvael]

I enjoyed both Good old MERP!

[vvs007]

of course, WITE is the best WW2 wargame, and Im grateful to the DEV for the truthfulness and attention paid to the history of my country, the USSR.
however, because of my perfectionism, never got to do more than 10 turns, at some point the game turns into hard work and two main reasons are - its a total micromanaging more than 600 units on map, of which only 40% is combat divisions and second is the excessive influence of dice rolls on the gameplay ( modification of SV during the battle, and the effect of aviation mechanics and auxiliary etc)
I really like where dev of Hearts of Iron 4 automation of many routine things and drawing battleplans with arrows on the map to see the division use it //goo.gl/ipb76J
what I want from the new WITE 2?
to reduce micro, to reduce the number of units on map at the expense of automation and special screens which the player will set the algorithms for aviation and support and etc.,
the ability to control the production (even in the old War in Russia was better, I hate planes U2 ) awesome would be to be able to modify the TOE for divisions, yet strangely, when the events are not historical, have historic the deterioration in the quality divisions, as well as the starting of morality, etc.
for example
now almost every AAR Soviet troops left Leningrad, hmm ... for you (foreigners), it's just a pixel on the map, but for that time, it was the mega symbol - city of the Great Lenin, gave the nazis = get the starting moral 50 minus 10, gave Moscow = another minus 15, i.e.
events on the map and data table now a poor related and it spoils the perception from the excellent WITE
thank you. sorry for my bad English

[RKhan]

ORIGINAL: GDHF

of course, WITE is the best WW2 wargame, and Im grateful to the DEV for the truthfulness and attention paid to the history of my country, the USSR.
however, because of my perfectionism, never got to do more than 10 turns, at some point the game turns into hard work and two main reasons are - its a total micromanaging more than 600 units on map, of which only 40% is combat divisions and second is the excessive influence of dice rolls on the gameplay ( modification of SV during the battle, and the effect of aviation mechanics and auxiliary etc)
I really like where dev of Hearts of Iron 4 automation of many routine things and drawing battleplans with arrows on the map to see the division use it //goo.gl/ipb76J
what I want from the new WITE 2?
to reduce micro, to reduce the number of units on map at the expense of automation and special screens which the player will set the algorithms for aviation and support and etc.,
the ability to control the production (even in the old War in Russia was better, I hate planes U2 ) awesome would be to be able to modify the TOE for divisions, yet strangely, when the events are not historical, have historic the deterioration in the quality divisions, as well as the starting of morality, etc.
for example
now almost every AAR Soviet troops left Leningrad, hmm ... for you (foreigners), it's just a pixel on the map, but for that time, it was the mega symbol - city of the Great Lenin, gave the nazis = get the starting moral 50 minus 10, gave Moscow = another minus 15, i.e.
events on the map and data table now a poor related and it spoils the perception from the excellent WITE
thank you. sorry for my bad English

Your English is good.

I find the idea of tying national morale to won or lost cities very interesting. I think it makes sense.

BTW, I have never walked away from Leningrad as the Soviet player. If the fascists want it, they will have to pay with blood!

[Djouk]

Sorry but i resume in this answer all i had to say now about this game that has become unplayable except against IA.

I had some bad feelings on latest patchs since months and i recognized it became very hard, nearly impossible to play soviets in 41-end 42 against some players where my army had became ridiculous compared axis on historical
perspectives.
Playing soviets, i was victim of super panzers making incredible breakthroughs fighting with no fatigue and impossible logistic... But unable to do that by my own playing axis. Ok i assumed i was simply bad, but septic.
It's great to make new patchs changing SDKFZ254 by the real historical SDKFZ254g, and discussing combat rules... but this become useless when you know this buildup method :

With first aid of a member of this forum i tested this method which works :

1. Move a unit from a HQ you want to buildup, i recommend only 1 hex of the unit most in the rear to avoid interdiction which unable undo move.
2. Go BuildUp the HQ.
3. Undo last move.
4. Until now all is normal because admin points go back.
5. But at the start of next turn your HQ has buildup for free !
6. You can do that as many time you want in a turn. This affects your motor pool but give you super powers... [&o]
7. No doubt that with all more prisoners and vehicules you can take your motor pool isn't so much affected

An other exploit i found is to edit an original scenario/campaign, then "exploiting" parameters and saving it and to propose it as the original on game server for the hosting player.
For exotics original scenarios just edit for example Campaign 41/45 then modify it save it and propose it on server. You can rename but to lure just use the same name than the orignal. Restriction is that other players must have
your extensions.

An other "funnies" :
I was rather well holding in pripet marsches. Then without axis breakthrough or any intrusion of enemy units in my rears and a good supply rail line all my units in marsches where surrounded by enemies ZOC and rails lines destroyed ... and so loosing marsches next turn...
May this be result of using HQ build every where on axis front at the same time !?!

For example I suspect an opponent to have increased growth of its forces, so at the end of 1942 he had more than 4 000 000 german soldiers even loosing nearly 2 000 000. Sorry but all become possible after that.
Moreover how to explain that in this same 41/45 bitter end campaign i had not a single SU-2 dive bomber and i have these in the new one ?!

Even not being a tester, i also remember i could air drop tigers in the past, no more possible now but i can still air drop normal infanterie in my own lines...

For the next patch it would be greater to allow multiple selections of support units for faster transfers to other hq : a huge gain in time for players.

Until all this not corrected it's useless playing multiplayer except to have fun to meet a cheater who believes you don't know what he's doing.

[rainman2015]

Can some of the beta playtesters outline what they feel are the main changes with WITE2, why they like or dislike them, etc.

I know of course that the supply will be much different with depots and that you will not be able to overload one railline outrageously with supply like we can now in WITE.

Also, the air war will be much different, although i don't really understand WITW and how it is different, or if it would actually be better.

I have heard that the Soviets can actually do a Yelna type of thing in 41 now and do mass attacks that bleed the Germans badly as they really did, while the Germans wait for supply to catch up.

What do you like and dislike about the new WITE2 features compared to WITE?

It will have to be pretty damn good to top the current version of WITE though!

Randy