What difficulty settings are people using?

[joelmar]

@SchDerGrosse

OK, I knew I was shooting myself in the foot with those two sentences!

As I lawyer, I guess you should have known! lol!

For the rest... you first need to be aware that Wite 1 hasn't been touched by the developpers for 5 years or more. The last patch in which they were involved was one of the 1.04 IIRC. All the patches since then have been data tweeking and minor coding and it's been done by a passionate amateur, who for all his goodwill is not part of the 2x3 development team as such.

And you are right, for the reasons aforementionned, the developpers don't give much energy to the AI. Not that they "don't care" it's just that the amount of work needed to make it behave correctly would be way too much, you have to remember Wite 2 has been in developpment for over 5 years now and is still in alpha version, so when all is said and done, it will have been over 6 years and more of dev. That is a very long dev cycle. And Gary Grigsby does most of the coding himself. When you get in those corners, you have to decide where you put your energy, and the AI is sadly the last of these areas, as I can assure you that it's VERY complicated. I know many people don't like (or want) to play MP games for different reasons. But these people are for the most part NOT the diehards Wite junkies who will make the game live a long time and who won't play against the AI anyway, even if it was a top of the line A-1 AI, because they prefer an organic opponent.

I have seen a post, probably in the Wite 2 thread, where someone on the dev team said that some ameliorations had been made to the AI in Wite 2, but I also remember reading that people should not expect too much from it.

So, if you wish to enjoy the game, I would say the best course of action is to try to enjoy it as it is, or else you are only bound to unproductive frustration. And if that's the case, maybe you should consider putting your (precious) time in another hobby.

That said... I have a few ideas of what to do to give a little hand to the AI:

-Forget about playing the Soviets against the AI.
-Don't take cities or positions given with no reason by the Soviet AI
-Alternatively, or in conjonction, you can force the AI to keep certain position by the simple stratagem of switching the Soviet player to "Human" in the settings before you push the Axis "End of turn" button. Then you go into the Soviet turn, and move yourself units to where you want them to be or to stay, making sure they don't have any MP's left. Then you switch back the Soviet settings to "Computer" and let the AI finish the job.
-You could also play against yourself (best choice if you wish to play the Soviets).
-Learn to enjoy the journey instead of the destination. That's also a good RL stance BTW... I know, we are not brought up like that in our beautiful modern societies, but there are merits to it. Wite is not a friendly "destination" game but it gives great rewards to those who love the "journey". I have a personal psychological approach for that: I take each turn as if it was a game of it's own, and I don't play to "win". You could say I approach the game as if it was a very big puzzle.

As a passionate Wite junkie, I can understand your frustration, I went through some of it myself when I started with the game. By example, I still haven't made my peace with the "routing" process. I mean, how can a unit be displaced over 10 hexes or more after loosing a battle when it couldn't even move 1 before... Anyway...

Hoping you get to find your fun!

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: SchDerGrosse

ORIGINAL: king171717

ORIGINAL: SchDerGrosse

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: as a layman I'am convinced that MUCH could be done with very limited coding to improve player vs. AI games (which I believe is way the majority of WitE players play).

This game is much better playing against someone. In any game out there an AI can be figured out and out smarted. Because most games today are becoming more complex the AI is getting worse and worse. For instance, take civ 4 vs civ 6 ai. In civ 4 the ai could doomstack troops. (turn production into military power easier) But in civ 6 its force to be one unit per tile. So the AI can be out smarted all the time. Hence the AI gets bonus.
Playing against the AI in this game is for beginners and to get to understand the concepts. As its super complex. Once you figure it out, U should play against other players.

You are probably right.

(Although there was a topic here where a fellow forumite commented "good A.I. doesnt sell", a statement which could be true for "regular" games but if it also applies to wargames then its a baffling concept.)

The problem with WitE grand campaigns is that:

(i) It requires a major time commitment and if the opponent (or myself) disappear mid-term for whatever reason it is quite a bummer for the other party (had two MP games in the distant past, both ended due to communication problems though I'am not blaming anyone, as stuff happens);

(ii) I presume pple here playing MP are at near-Pelton heights with regard to experience level, and beginners such as myself would be roflstomped. Someone wrote that if the Germans mess up the first 3 or so turns with the axis, then the game is as good as over.

Anyways.. I might be needing to wander into MP territory as I love this friggin game and it literary pains me that I cant play it due to the AI's complete lack of competency..

Ya a better AI would be great! But in all games I find the AI lacking.

I jump into multiplayer after playing two GC41 games against the AI as i found the AI too easy. The lack of AI in this game pushed me into multiplayer quickly. Also the AI cannot attack well at all.

I think u can find a similar opponent. I would just state that you are looking for a beginner etc. Playing against someone is way better! And makes the game way better too.

Ya the game is a huge time sink but totally worth it.

[uw06670]

Thanks for the replies Joelmar and Sammy. Good suggestion to try smaller scenarios and I was even flirting with it in the back of my head as I wrote the above. I admit I have not done that. It might be a good options for both MP and AI play as you said.

I don't think its all just making the AI smarter. The framework of the game could make certain things not possible for humans or AI that might help people not find ways to exploit it for huge effect.

I still would really like to know from the Developer or Publisher what % of people play MP at all? Not knowing how many units have sold its just speculation, but if its a really small % then a business argument could be made that the AI is much more important than MP. And look at all the costs associated with pleasing the MP crowd due to exploits and imbalances. I'm only half joking, I know that the enthusiasts are important to the game and especially to this genre and likely help "sell" the game to those that only dabble with MP.

Curious to see what WitE2 brings us. As I said before, I'm sometimes just in awe of WitE due to the complexity level. a Division "counter" is filled with so much data and depth compared to its board game equivalent. An order of magnitude of 10? 100? Its not a 4-4 Infantry division its this database of 100s of units of varying types with all of their weapons from artillery down to rifles. I love being able to attach a SP Mechanized artillery company to my favorite Armored division (or Regiment!). Its a micro managers dream (and nightmare!).

[thedoctorking]

ORIGINAL: uw06670

Thanks for the replies Joelmar and Sammy. Good suggestion to try smaller scenarios and I was even flirting with it in the back of my head as I wrote the above. I admit I have not done that. It might be a good options for both MP and AI play as you said.

I don't think its all just making the AI smarter. The framework of the game could make certain things not possible for humans or AI that might help people not find ways to exploit it for huge effect.

I still would really like to know from the Developer or Publisher what % of people play MP at all? Not knowing how many units have sold its just speculation, but if its a really small % then a business argument could be made that the AI is much more important than MP. And look at all the costs associated with pleasing the MP crowd due to exploits and imbalances. I'm only half joking, I know that the enthusiasts are important to the game and especially to this genre and likely help "sell" the game to those that only dabble with MP.

Curious to see what WitE2 brings us. As I said before, I'm sometimes just in awe of WitE due to the complexity level. a Division "counter" is filled with so much data and depth compared to its board game equivalent. An order of magnitude of 10? 100? Its not a 4-4 Infantry division its this database of 100s of units of varying types with all of their weapons from artillery down to rifles. I love being able to attach a SP Mechanized artillery company to my favorite Armored division (or Regiment!). Its a micro managers dream (and nightmare!).

I think this post is making a solid point. I only play against other humans because the AI doesn't present a real challenge. However, I realize that this is a real condemnation of the game. A lot of people don't have the patience to play against a human. They want a rewarding experience from the AI. This is something the designers should be working on.

That said, uw06670, I'd be happy to play you. I'll take either side and we can mess with the difficulty settings to give you a good advantage. And I'll explain what I'm doing. That's the best way to learn. I learned that way from the late departed ST in the happy days of 2017 or so. I think you'll find that it's a much better game played against a human opponent.

I don't think the game against a human player rewards ahistorical play. The big concern that we had at one point was the ability for attackers to break through and drive hundreds of miles into the enemy's rear, but with the new supply structure in 1.12 that has become very unlikely. Even with an HQBU in a 1942 summer counteroffensive as the Soviets, my tank corps only had 35-40 MP, and that was used up quite rapidly. I was able to cut off ten divisions or so, a nice haul, but no massive drives back to the Polish border in one turn like in the good old days.

[fritzfarlig]

I have never saw or play a wargame where the AI can surprise me, I always play against humans its the only fun for me

[countrboy]

I've owned the game since its release many many years ago. I played three grand campaigns I think vs the AI - 2 as Germany and 1 as Russia. All three ended quite unsatisfactorily at one stage or another as I lost interest. About 2 months ago I begun my first multiplayer game and it is a totally different game when played in that manner. Much more interesting and certainly far more challenging. I often dread opening my emails to see what my opponent has to say about their turn! My only wish (which I know is never going to happen) would be able to see your opponents moves, not just the end result.

[uw06670]

I'd be happy to play you.

Thanks, that is very kind of you. I understand the game mechanics pretty well and rules. I did beta testing for some patches and turned in some bugs as well. I just don't have the time it takes to invest in a full game and process turns in a reasonable time. I've been hoping this Team game over on discord gets going at some point. running 1 Army would be pretty fun I think.

But meanwhile, maybe a smaller time and space scale scenario would be fun.

[thedoctorking]

Multi player games are a lot of fun. I've been in a couple. One problem is that they go slow - I have a 42 Grand Campaign that I'm in that started back in the fall and is on turn 7.

It is a good way to learn the game, though.