11th Army?

[Zug]

Until I played as the Russian it didn't bother me. But once I had, I realized that 'historical constraints' only apply to the German side.

The Russian player can build whatever, whenever. Pool levels act as a brake, but it's odd that each side is playing under a different rule set.

If the Russian played under the same rules it would be a different game. If reinforcements for example were only historical with no ability to build them on the fly. Or if production was evacuated from cities on a historical schedule even if that city is under no threat it would all play out quite differently.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: Zug

Until I played as the Russian it didn't bother me. But once I had, I realized that 'historical constraints' only apply to the German side.

The Russian player can build whatever, whenever. Pool levels act as a brake, but it's odd that each side is playing under a different rule set.

If the Russian played under the same rules it would be a different game. If reinforcements for example were only historical with no ability to build them on the fly. Or if production was evacuated from cities on a historical schedule even if that city is under no threat it would all play out quite differently.

I would imagine that is a balancing issue tbh
If Axis had control of their own asset production it would likely be exploited to the point where the devs had to step in and change something I'd guess

For the Soviets I imagine it could be possible to limit their more liberal creativity but I would throw my PC across the room and then cry myself to sleep if I had to play with a system that is similar to opening turn 1 as them on a 1942+ campaign scenario.
Starting those scenarios and seeing such a wasteful mess on every hex of the map makes my soul hurt [:D]

Both sides would probably need a softer middle ground somewhere to make it work but it's a good point Zug!

[Zug]

Perhaps so but it's odd. And anyway if you have the goals of both being balanced and historical you have no chance of doing either. And that's what we have with WitE.

Balance is a slippery slope anyway. It's gamey and only a consideration for fair multiplayer.

I was really surprised when I saw how the Russian could build whatever he wanted. While the German has none of this capability, cannot even create a new HQ. Why not? And why can the Russian?

[56ajax]

Well the game tries to set some historical limits thats probably Why, Why Not.

As for the Soviets historically they appeared to have an almost infinite capacity to place new Armies on the field of battle, with massive manpower resources not seen in the game.

If you open up the 42 campaign and check the Soviet OOB it is very comprehensive, and perhaps impossible to build from 41 with the Admin points allocated.

I suppose all those units could come as reinforcements but the problem there is the state of Soviet industry, which may have been over run.

Personally I think there should be an option to allow the Axis to create base grade units on a very limited basis, which would follow the historical model; a larger OOB lacking substance.

[chaos45]

Yes the Soviet side is fairly handicapped compared to historical OOB with a 1941 start.

Soviet side in game has millions fewer in replacements than in real life and a much lower level of training on new units in 1941 than the real life situation, this compounds to give the Germans a massive edge in 1941 and into 1942 compared to historical. As well the AP system limits the 1941 soviet player to building and manning many fewer units than the 1942 historical OOB.

In real life the Germans Intel vastly underestimated soviet capabilities, they had 0 chance of defeating the soviets in 1941 and just didnt know it...and in all honesty they still had 0 chance historically of beating them in 1942 but didnt know it. The game carries on as if the german estimates were correct and the soviets had extremely limited manpower reserves...when they actually had something like 10+ million trained reservists on top of the field army in 1941 they could call up...and If I remember right its closer to 15 million trained military reservist...yes these werent fully integrated military manpower but had all already completed basic military training as required of that time.

[thedoctorking]

They have to make a game of it. I play Advanced Squad Leader a lot, and there are a bunch of scenarios that are about "how can you get beaten less badly than the historical side did?" It is always somewhat frustrating when you "win" with one squad left standing, that will certainly get wiped out on the next turn, but you managed to hold out for the required amount of time, so that's a win in game terms. This game does make the Axis ahistorically strong so that each side has a chance to gain an actual victory.

It would be nice if there were a historical scenario. There was some talk about creating one using the editor but nothing came of it.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

They have to make a game of it. I play Advanced Squad Leader a lot, and there are a bunch of scenarios that are about "how can you get beaten less badly than the historical side did?" It is always somewhat frustrating when you "win" with one squad left standing, that will certainly get wiped out on the next turn, but you managed to hold out for the required amount of time, so that's a win in game terms. This game does make the Axis ahistorically strong so that each side has a chance to gain an actual victory.

It would be nice if there were a historical scenario. There was some talk about creating one using the editor but nothing came of it.

I developed rules for integrating Fotress Europa and Advanced Squad Leader. The squad leader rule about morale dropping 1 per 10% losses over 20% made retreat an option basically holding too long meant elimination of the unit in Fortress Europa..but I hear you ..

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I play Advanced Squad Leader a lot, and there are a bunch of scenarios that are about "how can you get beaten less badly than the historical side did?" It is always somewhat frustrating when you "win" with one squad left standing, that will certainly get wiped out on the next turn, ....

It's never even the slightest bit frustrating to win an ASL scenario even if it's the last broken crew who self-rallies under DM in my final half turn and then survives withering defensive fire to eliminate an enemy squad and 9-2 leader in Close Combat that brings the win. Frustrating? Bah...GLORIOUS. Shit like that actually happening is what makes it the greatest game ever made. [:D][:D]