The most important thing to fix WitE's playability

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The only strategy that makes sense for the Germans in 1942 is to kill Russian units for the sake of killing them.

Wouldn't the AP cost of rebuilding surrendered/shattered units eventually be a bottle-neck for the Russian if the Germans kill off enough of them? It seems like it should be, if it isn't, given the production dichotomy of the 2 sides.

In my view, the 42 campaign for the Germans is not about territory because the game gives nothing beyond perhaps reducing some pop centers/resources because the industry should be gone. 42 is all about killing as many Russian units as possible; not because the Russians don't have the manpower/industry to replace them (they usually do in most cases), but because the Russians are restricted on how fast they can replace units and also begin the transformation of the army from brigades/divisions into butt kicking corps backed by artillery. The more units the Germans can kill, the more AP resources the Russians are forced into unit construction and further delay the transformation. The more successful the Germans are in 1942 (provided they don't take hideous losses doing it), the better chance of a marginal victory they have because the Russians simply won't be able to advance fast enough in 1944 to get the job done.

Part of the issue of course that the vast majority of games never get to 43/44, so a lot of this is theory/conjecture. Most games see one side or the other quit.

[hfarrish]

Sorry on the "desired result." That wasn't specific to you and I know you are on both sides, so didn't mean to imply otherwise. I actually really don't think anyone argues this stuff in bad faith, more just everyone seems to think the other side is somehow ahistorically benefitting from rule quirks. I do feel like the 41 campaign is in pretty good shape right now, and regardless of the accuracy of any one particular piece of it, the balance (and historical feel) is about right overall.

If forts are a problem perhaps one solution is to make Soviet units a bit more effective independently in 41 as a tradeoff...This would make the 4-layer belts of forts in 42 more difficult without tipping the 41 play balance over the edge. Just a thought.

[fbs]

Hmm... people forget that fort level is level of fortification of the surrounding region, rather than the tiny little dot in the 10-miles hex that mean a trench. So if a fort is a logical thingie rather than a physical trench/obstacle/whatever, then consider the fact that it is easier to make 1000 ft of trenches than 1000 ft of runways. Also consider the fact that, as some terrains are flat and can be used as is as runways, some other terrain is not flat and can be used as is as forts.

Moreover, would those construction crews stay around to fight the Germans? Never! Therefore, it's a logical consequence that forts should be treated just like airbases: make them flee the enemies instead of being destroyed, at some cost for attrition.

Automatic displacement of forts... that's the rule that's missing from the manual. Just imagine the satisfaction of the German player putting in the run all those Soviet forts. And his surprise when all those forts recover, rebuild and come running after him in 1943!

THAT, my friend, is the solution for the Forts Dilemma in WitE.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

It boils down to how easy it is for a smart Soviet player to avoid being encircled. As I said to my Soviet opponent: The only thing the Soviet has to do is ensure he doesn't do anything after Turn 10 that gets 500,000 Soviets isolated, and he knows he can ride it out until late 1942 and take the initiative.

The only way to beat the Soviets is casualties, and the game mechanics make it really easy for the Soviet to avoid repeating his historic predecessor's casualty figures. That's it - that's the problem with the game.

You hit the nail right on the head with this point.

[cookie monster]

Realistically it should be difficult for a Soviet player to lose the game.

The same can be said for the Allies in War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.

I think expecting to be able to play as the underdog and reach historical lines is abit strange.

Balancing the game to help achieve this is also not ideal.

Why play as the underdog and expect impressive results, when you must fully utilize a finely tuned yet small military to the maximum.

With all of histories disasters avoided and offensive and defensive strategies known, all what will happen is the German War machine will be overpowered quicker than in history.

If you have the guts to play as the underdog and be overpowered then fine.

Otherwise play the Soviets.

Other than that, go play something with equal sides, cos WitE sure ain't equal.

Ants vs Supermen then an unstoppable 10 million strong Soviet Army with Infantry Corps with XX as a defensive figure.

This game will never morph into anything different, no matter how much the game mechanics are discussed.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

This game will never morph into anything different, no matter how much the game mechanics are discussed.

For me it is not a question of morphing it into something different, the issue for me is that the historical 1942 situation and campaign will simply not happen in the game. The game works well for 1941, but the resulting Kursk-like situation all over the front in 1942 does not feel historical.

[hfarrish]

As a defender of the "forts" system in 41 I wouldn't object to weakening it in 42 - perhaps just coming up with a way to bar completely third and fourth lines (even at Kursk I don't think the forts went 30 miles deep)...of course this will cut both ways, particularly for the German in 43 onwards. My main concern would just be a blanket cut that leaves the Soviet in 41 unable to get to levels 1-2, without which things are pretty hopeless against a decent German player.

[Tarhunnas]

Fairly typical fort lines and "no mans land", July 1942. No one wants to occupy the empty hexes.

[BleedingOrange]

Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger while the German is stuck with no reason to continue except to be a punching bag. Yes the Soviets won the war and should be easier to play, but if you want people to play the full campaign there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

[jhdeerslayer]

ORIGINAL: BleedingOrange

Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger while the German is stuck with no reason to continue except to be a punching bag. Yes the Soviets won the war and should be easier to play, but if you want people to play the full campaign there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

I agree and good summary. I just feel that from 42 on the game just doesn't feel right but 41 does.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: BleedingOrange

Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger gn there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

I do think it's fair to say that the Germans get the advantage of being able to move army group units around at will (a big advantage). The German is also not forced to stand & die in 41 or to stay in pockets that he could break out of (err, well, you really can't break out of a pocket in this game, but someone can break in).

And German supply is super simplified, even if it's not particularly advantageous to him.

The WitE German also knows that his axis minors suck a$$, whereas ol Adolf thought they could hold the line here and there... You can also make a halfway respectable force out of some minors through proper utilization of them.

That being said, the advantages the Soviet get are much more vast in consequence to the game.

[Oleg Mastruko]

It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

[Mynok]

Fun for who? [:'(] I joke, of course, as I'm learning a lot about the end game without having to play a whole nother year. [:D]

Forts really aren't enough in 44. Just too much Soviet firepower. But it would be much worse if they were weakened.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

Is that really comparable to the Soviet lines we are typically seeing in AARs in 1942? Do the Germans build triple lines of level 2 or 3 forts? What has been discussed above is not weakening the forts as such, but limiting the ability to build deep zones of them far from the frontline.

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

I'm not advocating they take longer to build.
I'm advocating they protect against a limited number of hex-sides based on their fort level.

In my consideration of this position, I felt this would make a more realistic game and would work for defensive realism of both sides. It forces Soviets to consider flanks and to try, in conjunction with terrain obstacles, to anchor lines of defense on his flanks (it reduces the effectiveness of linebacker, promoting defense in lines, with several lines. Checkerboard defenses have ruined the game, and IMO, are a-historic at the scale of the game (if this were a battalion level game with 3 mile hexes, checkerboard is more realistic).

With the German having higher maneuverability, German forces could bypass certain fortified areas as they historically did, and attack from unanticipated direction, reducing the effectiveness of the fort.

Conversely, the Soviet, who doesn't have as much maneuverability in 1943/1944, wouldn't be able to exploit gaps in lines as well as his German counterpart can. Moreover, as you yourself note, Germans dig in faster, so getting to a Level 3 fort happens faster (which would cover 3 or 4 hex-sides, and would be fully functioning as in the current game conditions).

If you see that as flawed, let me know how.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Tarhunnas, Germans have what I jokingly called Jedi fort building capacity. If they cannot build double or triple lines that's just because they don't have enough UNITS to do the building, but their building capacity per unit is fantastic.

Soviets on the other hand have artillery [:D] Enough artillery will beat any German Jedi forts, but problem for the Soviet player is that he cannot apply enough arty everywhere, he has to choose.

All in all, I think fort building balance for both sides is fine. Forts are not indestructible, but they are quite enough to make the attacker choose his battles carefully, and apply enough force if he wants to win.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not advocating they take longer to build.
I'm advocating they protect against a limited number of hex-sides based on their fort level.

Be careful what you ask for, because I really see this idea of yours as going HEAVILY against Germans in the long run.

Forts are the only friends Germans have 43 and beyond. You don't have numbers, you have some edge in quality and morale but it's melting fast. The only true force multiplier you as German have are forts. Mynok is having a very hard time in our 43 game (which is in mid 44 already). Without forts protecting his units from multiple sides, it would be even harder for him...

Soviets have bazillions of individual units. In this war it will always be easier for them to mount multiple-side attacks than it is for Germans.

[Mynok]

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

I'm finding it difficult to keep my end up due to time. But I'll try to update things tonight.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

I'm finding it difficult to keep my end up due to time. But I'll try to update things tonight.

I didn't do a proper AAR, I just posted my Excel table with most important numbers. I stopped doing it around turn 40, I forgot to update it for a couple turns and it didn't make sense to pick up later. In May 44 Rumanians capitulated and numbers are really skewed now (pro-Sov Rumanians are added to my totals) and the situation in the south is very fluid. For at least some time in the south we will have war of limited manouver, not just the slow grind from my Excel table [:D]

I made some incredible gains, but victory conditions are very very harsh for Soviets, basically I have to take the WHOLE map to win. As the territoty shrinks and goes into mountain zones, even his seemingly low numbers may be enough to stop me, we'll see....

[Michael T]

With Zoc's, ants and forts the way they are Soviet only players will find it harder and harder to find a willing (long term) German opponent. Perhaps then something will be done. When I play Soviet I am utterly confident of victory. When German it is more a feeling of dread if I don't play a perfect turn each and every turn. And even that might not be enough.

One way to help the long game would be to have it end in May 1945. If the Germans survive till then they win. Soviets win if they take Berlin some time prior to May 1945. Having to hold out till October seems a big ask.