Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list?

[bclemans]

I like the ability to disband poor performing divisions, like the Luftwaffe field divisions as mentioned in another thread.

Is it possible to list all the German divisions (for the Eastern Front) and their availability date at this forum? If I remember correctly, I think the WIR's manual included a table.

The reason I ask is that some of the divisions (for the Eastern Front) were not included in WIR, such as some late war SS divisons and army panzer divisions. I understand that some of these divisions were created at battalion size / less than divisional size. However, since it was mentioned that the Soviet's has the ability to create new formations, it is only fair that the Germans are given all the destinated divisions - regardless whether they are understrength or not.

And whether they are "understrength or not" depends on the progress of the game (from the replacement pool). So if the replacement pool can handle these divisions, they should be allowed to be built up over time.

If it is too much trouble to provide the list at this point, I will be willing to type my list of "no show" late war German divisions for your review. Thanks

[Hard Sarge]

don't worry too much, there is a lot more under the hood of this game, then with the old WIR

there is also a lot more "good" OOB info around now, then way back then

offhand, I can't say that every unit is going to be there, but I think we got most of them in one form or another

not sure if we can show off OOB lists until later on, still is a WIP

[Great_Ajax]

Currently undergoing a review and revision of the scenarios on all German units. The intent is that every on-map combat unit of brigade and division strength is represented in the game if it can be documented that the unit participated. Every construction, pioneer, nebelwerfer, artillery, panzerjager, stug, heavy panzer battalion that saw action are also included. Keep in mind that the documentation on many of these smaller units are spotty at best. I have found that documentation for the 41 and 42 campaigns are great. The 43 Kursk campaign documentation is great for the central forces involved in the offensive. The documentation goes to almost completely obscure in 44 and then gets worse. Some late war units are included such as named infantry (Barwald, Koslin) and panzer divisions (Holstein, Clausewitz) and they will arrive several months before the war ends at almost minimal strength. It will be up to the player to decide to keep these units and let them fill out with equipment from their equipment pool or disband them and let the equipment focus on the the standard line units. If you want to throw out some units in this thread and see if they are in the game, I would be happy to look them up for you. If you find a unit that isn't in the game that should be and the documentation is there, I will get them added.


Trey

[wiking62]

Hi Trey,
 
Are the following units in the game (all late war):
 
[font=arial]Division Denecke[/font]
[font=arial]Division Hela Ost[/font]
[font=arial]Division Matterstock [/font]
[font=arial]Division Pomerania [/font]
[font=arial]Division Rägener [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Jüterbog [/font]
[font=arial]Panzergrenadier-Division Kurmark [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Müncheberg [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Schlesien [/font]
[font=arial]232. Panzer-Division [/font]
[font=arial]233. Panzer-Division [/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial]Probably have more to follow.[/font]

[wiking62]

A few more:
 
[font=arial]Division z.b.V. 607 [/font]
[font=arial]Division z.b.V. 608[/font]
[font=arial]2. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division[/font]
[font=arial]30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS[/font]
[font=arial]31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division [/font]
[font=arial]32. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division 30 Januar [/font]
[font=arial]33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne [/font]
[font=arial]35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division [/font]
[font=arial]36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS [/font]
[font=arial]37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Lützow [/font]
[font=arial]38. SS-Grenadier-Division Nibelungen [/font]

[Great_Ajax]

Yes to all except Hela. I don't have any information on that one. These units arrive in early '45 at 5% strength.

Trey

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Hi Trey,

Are the following units in the game (all late war):

[font=arial]Division Denecke[/font]
[font=arial]Division Hela Ost[/font]
[font=arial]Division Matterstock [/font]
[font=arial]Division Pomerania [/font]
[font=arial]Division Rägener [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Jüterbog [/font]
[font=arial]Panzergrenadier-Division Kurmark [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Müncheberg [/font]
[font=arial]Panzer-Division Schlesien [/font]
[font=arial]232. Panzer-Division [/font]
[font=arial]233. Panzer-Division [/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial]Probably have more to follow.[/font]

[Great_Ajax]

Yes to almost all.

No to:

607th (no listing of combat subordinate units that I can find)

2nd Cossack Division (Not enough information on its combat role. I saw it took part in actions in Yugoslavia and Hungary but not enough specifics to warrant inclusion.)

30th SS - shows it was assigned to the west in '44 and then back at Grafenwohr. Records do not indicate that it served with combat units in the East that I can find. It also went through several periods of reorganization and disbandings and never reached division strength. Used to form cadres of the 38th SS and 600th Infantry Division which are in game.

Trey

ORIGINAL: hart2412

A few more:

[font=arial]Division z.b.V. 607 [/font]
[font=arial]Division z.b.V. 608[/font]
[font=arial]2. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division[/font]
[font=arial]30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS[/font]
[font=arial]31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division [/font]
[font=arial]32. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division 30 Januar [/font]
[font=arial]33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne [/font]
[font=arial]35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division [/font]
[font=arial]36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS [/font]
[font=arial]37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Lützow [/font]
[font=arial]38. SS-Grenadier-Division Nibelungen [/font]

[Rhetor]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Yes to all except Hela. I don't have any information on that one.

Since Hela Peninsula is so thin a stretch of land that it hasn't even been included on the campaign map, would it be prudent to include this "Division"?

[bclemans]

The partial list above is impressive!

In WIR, the Brandenburg division doesn't have any armor. I read that the division has a Stug brigade and a Pz Jager Abt in 44' & 45' (source: Squardon/Signal publication's "Panzer Grenadier division Grossdeutschland").
The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade, Fuhrer Begleit Brigade along with the other divisions mentioned on this tread have some armor components, I hope the game will include the armor along with the divisions (at 5% strength or appropriate) as well. Thanks.

[Great_Ajax]

All of the units you refer to make an appearance. Fuhrer Grenadier shows up as Brigade in the late summer of '44, withdraws, and then returns as a full division in early '45. Fuhrer Begleit and Brandenburg are also included and have armor. They show up considerably better armed than those training divisions earlier in the post but not at full strength.

Trey

ORIGINAL: bclemans

The partial list above is impressive!

In WIR, the Brandenburg division doesn't have any armor. I read that the division has a Stug brigade and a Pz Jager Abt in 44' & 45' (source: Squardon/Signal publication's "Panzer Grenadier division Grossdeutschland").
The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade, Fuhrer Begleit Brigade along with the other divisions mentioned on this tread have some armor components, I hope the game will include the armor along with the divisions (at 5% strength or appropriate) as well. Thanks.

[wiking62]

Hi Trey,

I think the [font=arial]Rägner Division should enter the game at higher than 5% strength due to it's composition as listed below:[/font]

[font=arial]Fischer Grenadier Regiment [/font]
[font=arial]Becker Grenadier Regiment [/font]
[font=arial]Petersdorf Grenadier Regiment [/font]
[font=arial]Rägner Panzerjäger Company [/font]
[font=arial]Rägner Feldersatz Company [/font]
[font=arial]Rägner Fusilier Company [/font]
[font=arial]Rägner Pioneer Company [/font]
[font=arial]Supply Troops [/font]

[wiking62]

Division Matterstock also had three infantry regiments:
 
[font=arial]Otwarka Regiment [/font]
[font=arial]533th Ersatz Grenadier Regiment [/font]
[font=arial]Teermann Regiment[/font]

[wiking62]

Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Mapping Detachment (mot)

Escort Company (mot)

Infantry Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Flak Platoon (self-propelled)

Military Police Detachment (mot)

Jüterbog Panzer Battalion

Staff Company

3 x Company

Panzer Maintenance Platoon

Panzer Supply Company

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment

Staff Company

Signals Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Battalion

Supply Company

2 x Company (half-track)

Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Battalion

Supply Company

3 x Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Heavy Infantry Gun Company

Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company

Jagdpanzer Battery

Panzerjäger Company (half-track)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment

Staff Battery

Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company

Supply & Support Units

This was a pretty well organised and equiped unit, so i think 5% strength is again a bit low.

Sources:
Microfilm Publication A-3356
Kurt Mehner - Die Deutsche Wehrmacht 1939-1945

[PyleDriver]

Someone put this guy on our team, he's wearing me out with all the info. He does have a hart...

[Great_Ajax]

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength. They just have to build up with your own resource pool. They actually appear on-map about a month before they entered any combat historically to give the player the choice to keep the unit and refit it or disband it. What we also want to prevent is a player taking advantage of these cheap units by disbanding them and having their manpower fill into more viable units. Remember that any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit. So, if we give the player twenty garrison low-quality type units fully equipped at the end of the war, a player could easily take advantage of the system, disband them all and gain a substantial "free" pool of replacement equipment for his other units.

Trey

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength. They just have to build up with your own resource pool. They actually appear on-map about a month before they entered any combat historically to give the player the choice to keep the unit and refit it or disband it. What we also want to prevent is a player taking advantage of these cheap units by disbanding them and having their manpower fill into more viable units. Remember that any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit. So, if we give the player twenty garrison low-quality type units fully equipped at the end of the war, a player could easily take advantage of the system, disband them all and gain a substantial "free" pool of replacement equipment for his other units.

Trey

Okay, that's fair enough. I know that any decisions on many of the late war units are always going to be difficult because the quality and quantity varied so much.

Now i know the design decision i don't need to list all of the other units that i thought were too low.[:D]

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Someone put this guy on our team, he's wearing me out with all the info. He does have a hart...

Always happy to help. [:D]

Seriously, if you ever need any help with OOB's/unit details etc i have a very large source of information gathered over many years.

[ComradeP]

Do you also have data on how many men are in those units? A division including a full assortment of named elements is one thing, manning them properly is something the Germans usually couldn't do that late in the war.

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Do you also have data on how many men are in those units? A division including a full assortment of named elements is one thing, manning them properly is something the Germans usually couldn't do that late in the war.

Agreed. Most of the late war divisions were no more than battalion/regimental strength. I do have data on unit strengths, but a lot of the late war ad hoc divisional strengths are very sketchy/unreliable. Many units existed in no more than name only.

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Mapping Detachment (mot)

Escort Company (mot)

Infantry Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Flak Platoon (self-propelled)

Military Police Detachment (mot)

Jüterbog Panzer Battalion

Staff Company

3 x Company

Panzer Maintenance Platoon

Panzer Supply Company

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment

Staff Company

Signals Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Battalion

Supply Company

2 x Company (half-track)

Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Battalion

Supply Company

3 x Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Heavy Infantry Gun Company

Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company

Jagdpanzer Battery

Panzerjäger Company (half-track)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment

Staff Battery

Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company

Supply & Support Units

This was a pretty well organised and equiped unit, so i think 5% strength is again a bit low.

Sources:
Microfilm Publication A-3356
Kurt Mehner - Die Deutsche Wehrmacht 1939-1945

Panzer Division "Juterbog" was created on 02/20/45, and absorbed by the 16. Panzer Division around 03/03/45. I think that is why the design team is giving us the option of filling up these units, or disbanding them. Most of the late-war units were of dubious quality, and poorly equipped, and couldn't wait to try and make it to the West, and surrender to the Western Allies. When reviewing original sources, it's sometimes not clear as to whether you're looking at a "planned" organization, or not. The other issue is that, just because a FP number was issued, doesn't mean that the unit existed in any sort of meaningful size.