December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard?

[Captain B]

OK,

I have read the rule book again...It clearly states that December is supposed to be snow in Europe Zone. It is now December 4, 1941, playing the grand campaign, and having what I thought was finally figured out when winter is and when to dig in... All of my units in the Black Sea Region, should just be under SNOW! Not blizzard conditions. Moved the bulk of the rumanian army there to give me two months less blizzard )December and February, and one and one-half month more clear weather (May 1 - June 19). Is this a bug or is the manual wrong? The weather around the Black Sea (and for that matter the Adriatic) is a lot more pleasant than those nasty moscow winters.

Just when I thought I had a strategy to lower casualties in Dec!

The wording in the rule book is:

The following rules impact the Axis player in the section of the map area delineated by
coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes the
months of December 1941 through February 1942. With the exception of the supply modifier
(22.3.4) Finnish units as well as all Axis Ski and Mountain units of any nationality are not
affected by any first winter rules.

If you are in a SNOW turn (well at least supposed to be according to the table...should the blizzard rules NOT apply?

HELP!

[bevans]

Those co-ordinates - the 54/72 line - defines a relatively benign climate zone for the first winter; east/north of that means winter is blizzards. There are snow turns in December reflecting the weather for that last German push at Moscow. And yes, for snow turns, blizzard rules do not apply and the Wehrmacht is actually very effective during these turns. After that it is blizzards, more blizzards and nothing but blizzards. Do you have random weather on or off?

[Captain B]

Using non-random weather...and in December, in the Europe zone, the weather is supposed to be snow...not blizzard. My weather screen shows blizzard in all 4 zones....not what the manual says!

[randallw]

I think you are a little confused.&nbsp; The area that's mentioned by the X-Y coords is where the Axis receive extra punishment if it is a 1941 blizzard turn; it is NOT saying that a blizzard only happens in those X-Y areas.

[Varity]

I'm having the same problem.

Like the op, I'm currently on turn 25 of the 1941 grand campaign using historical weather and find that my units on the Crimean peninsula at, for instance, (97, 118) are taking damage from the first winter rules.

Furthermore, the weather report shows blizzard conditions for the Europe weather zone whereas the manual in section 22.2.1 lists snow for the EWZ in December.

ORIGINAL: randallw

I think you are a little confused.  The area that's mentioned by the X-Y coords is where the Axis receive extra punishment if it is a 1941 blizzard turn; it is NOT saying that a blizzard only happens in those X-Y areas.

If I go be the rules in the manual, neither should happen: My troops should not be taking damage from first winter rules on hex 97, 118 and the weather conditions in that hex should be snow, not blizzard.

Is this a bug in the game or working as intended and the manual is wrong/misleading/incomplete?

[randallw]

97, 118?&nbsp; I looked at the weather zone screen, and it's south of the Southern Soviet Zone.&nbsp; It's the same color as the the Europe zone ( eastern Germany ), but should it be assumed that this southern Crimean area is supposed to have matching weather?

Are you clear on how the X,Y coords work, as described by the manual?&nbsp; It may be worded a little odd for some people.

[randallw]

Upon further review the snow/blizzard areas do seem to have a problem.

[Captain B]

Thanks Randallw...here is a summary in one screen shot of the apparent bug....wish I could see if someone was looking into this!

In short,
o the weather table says it should be SNOW in Europe
o the weather screen (shift w) says Europe is already engulfed in a Blizzard and Ice Level 7
o Three turns of Snow in November, plus what should be one in December says that the Ice Level should be 4 in Europe, Not 7.
o I really think that this is a bug.

[randallw]

And the weather is set to historical ( non-random ), correct?

[Captain B]

Yes.

[randallw]

Maybe Helpless should be looking into this.

[kswanson1]

Yes. I'd like to know the answer to this one as well as I was considering moving a Corps or two of armor back to Germany to refit and avoid the blizzard attrition during the 41-42 winter. I've already railed three divisions back to Berlin and was going to rail another 3 or 4 this turn (i'm on the last turn of snow before the blizzard kicks in in Russian Weather Zones). Also playing historical weather.

[Joel Billings]

It does sound like a bug. This was Gary's code which he adjusted a few times in earlier patches, but obviously something still isn't quite working right or the manual is wrong. Have you seen snow in the Europe zone before during December?

[Gandalf]

Been this way since at least "official" v1.03. (just confirmed)

[Captain B]

Joel,

I'll go ahead and reload v 1.0 and run a quick game through December and get right back to you. Thanks.

[Captain B]

Joel, Just reloaded v 1.0 and ran the scenario through dec (well really just ran the weather through that time...didn't move any units) Here is the screen shot from Dec 4. As you see it says snow in Western Europe, Ice Level 4. The most current version official version shows Western Europe Blizzard Ice Level 7. I didn't move any units into the crimean snow zone to see if they were affected..but I will do that also. So somewhere between 1.0 and 1.03 the weather got untweaked!

[Captain B]

OK, I took my save file from the last snow turn in Novermber in V 1.03 and loaded it into v1.0. The unit circled in red suffers blizzard effect. The unit circled in blue suffered blizzard effects, but when I moved it to the SNOW area in the crimea, it went back to non-blizzard strngths (well minus the supply that it didn't get originally). The unit circled in black did not suffer supply or blizzard effect because it started in snow conditions,

And obviously the romanian divisions suffered no blizzard effect either! Movement rates appear to be snow rates as well in the snow area vs blizzard movement rates.

[kswanson1]

Captian B:

It sounds like the problem is that the weather overview map is showing the incorrect weather conditions within the European Zone. But that the actual weather effects upon units within those zone is WAD. Is that a fair assessment of the results of your testsing Captian B?

Thanks for running through those tests.

[Gandalf]

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Captian B:

It sounds like the problem is that the weather overview map is showing the incorrect weather conditions within the European Zone. But that the actual weather effects upon units within those zone is WAD. Is that a fair assessment of the results of your testsing Captian B?

Thanks for running through those tests.

No... not WAD. I ran the same fast forward test last night and the actual individual hex Ice conditions noted in the upper right corner coincided with the incorrect weather depicted on the weather overview map.

edit: I'll rerun it once more to confirm... Takes about 20 minutes with no moves.

edit: confirmed... the ice levels depicted in the upper right corner for hexes selected in the European weather zone are identical to the Soviet weather zone ice levels in December.

[kswanson1]

Ok thanks Gandalf. The River Freeze thing is definately important in terms of late war defense. But at the moment I wondering about blizzard attritional effects on my combat units in the Europe Weather Zone. I'm wondering if I should expect uber frost bite for German units hold up in Berlin during the winter of 41-42. I'll try to run some of my own tests this afternoon.