December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard?

[Gandalf]

I am assuming of course that the river freeze level is a result of the weather being the same in both the European and the Soviet weather zones. This might not be a totally cool assumption but it makes sense to me. Someone tell me if this is an incorrect assumption.

[Joel Billings]

Ice levels go up or down based on the weather. If the weather is blizzard, they will go up faster. Clearly it appears that there is blizzard in the Europe zone when the manual says it should be snow, so that is not WAD (unless the manual is wrong and Gary intended it to be blizzard). As for the first winter effects, AFAIK they are strictly based on two items:

1) Is the weather in the hex blizzard
2) Does the hex fall in the area described in the manual for first winter rules

If both 1 and 2 are true, then units in the hex will suffer 1st winter modifications. We will look into why it's blizzard in Europe in December. My last AI vs AI test shows it blizzard in all of December in Europe, but only snow in February.

[kswanson1]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Ice levels go up or down based on the weather. If the weather is blizzard, they will go up faster. Clearly it appears that there is blizzard in the Europe zone when the manual says it should be snow, so that is not WAD (unless the manual is wrong and Gary intended it to be blizzard). As for the first winter effects, AFAIK they are strictly based on two items:

1) Is the weather in the hex blizzard
2) Does the hex fall in the area described in the manual for first winter rules

If both 1 and 2 are true, then units in the hex will suffer 1st winter modifications. We will look into why it's blizzard in Europe in December. My last AI vs AI test shows it blizzard in all of December in Europe, but only snow in February.

Thanks for looking into this Joel.

I'm still unclear as to where the frostbite attrition during the first winter occurs and where it doesn't occur. The manuals deliniations are somewhat confusing to me. Page 291 of the game manual indicates "The following rules impact the Axis Player in the section of the map area delineated by the coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes months of December 1941 through Fenruary 1942."

I put this all onto a screen shot of the game map.



http://img535.imageshack.us/f/frostbitezones.jpg/

I picked out the two nodal hexes and show them in yellow on the attached figure. The western most node is hex (54,95) --> (X,Y). The eastern node is hex (72,95). I think this splits the map up into 5 possible zones as I show in the attached figure.

Zone-5: is a frostbite attrition area.

Zone-4 (Green Shaded): ? This seems like it should be a frosbite attrition free area, however according to Captian B's testing, Axis units are suffering attrition well south of the Y=95 hexline. He is showing attrition and supply effects on Axis units that are well into the Crimea.

Zone-3: (Yellow Shaded): ? I assume this is supposed to be frostbite attrition free? Or is that incorrect?

Zone-2: (Blue Zone): ?Is this a frostbite attrition zone or a non-frostbite attrition zone?

Zone-1: (Pink\Red Zone): ?I assume there should be no frosbite attrition in this zone? Is that correct?

[Joel Billings]

Axis can suffer 1st winter penalties in areas 2,4 and 5, but only if it is Dec41-Feb42 and the hex has blizzard weather. Areas 1 and 3 should never suffer 1st winter penalties. Thanks for creating the map so this could be clarified.


I found in the 1.03 beta 2 patch notes the following item:

7. Missing Rule – Section 22.2 should contain an additional exception that states there will be no snow or mud during December 1941 and January 1942 (only Blizzard).


This explains why we are seeing blizzard in the Europe zone in December 1941, while in other Decembers it should be snow.

Just shows why we need that "living" manual that Leo is working on that would contain all the rule corrections/changes to the manual since release.

[kswanson1]

Thanks Joel.

[kswanson1]

Additional poop on this subject:

I let the computer play itself in the GC41 campaign last night. Started the game and came back periodically to record critical statistics. I than went to bed while the game was still playing itself. An aside, but you can still open overall Admin Reports while the game is still playing itself.

Numerous observations about the results of blizzard. But fot his thread I just wanted to report that the Europe Weather Zone does go to Snow at the Start of February of 1942.

I was unable to determine if Blizzard Effects shwack Axis units in the Europe Weather Zone during Blizzard as I couldnt figure out a way to look at individual unit stats while the computer is in the middle of playing itself. However, I am in the middle of a PBEM game which is just about to go into the first blizzard. I'll track individual unit stats in the Europe Weather ZOne during blizzard in the PBEM to determine if they suffer frost bite attrition effects.

[kswanson1]

An unrelated\related Question:

Can iced over Gulf of Leningrad, Sea of Azov, Lake Ladoga, and other Lake Hexes be traversed by ground combat units during Snow and Blizzard? I mean by using normal movement -- not Sea Transport. If yes, at what Ice Level can units start moving across frozen Sea and Lake hexes?

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

An unrelated\related Question:

Can iced over Gulf of Leningrad, Sea of Azov, Lake Ladoga, and other Lake Hexes be traversed by ground combat units during Snow and Blizzard? I mean by using normal movement -- not Sea Transport. If yes, at what Ice Level can units start moving across frozen Sea and Lake hexes?

No

[kswanson1]

Thanks Joel.

[Varity]

I find that the problem persists in version 1.04.22.

Europe still has blizzard on turn 25 and the logistics phase event log shows a blizzard result for die roll 5. According to section 22.2.2 the outcome should have been snow for that die roll in December.

[Joel Billings]

This is because of the readme note from the 1.03 Beta 2 version:

7. Missing Rule – Section 22.2 should contain an additional exception that states there will be no snow or mud during December 1941 and January 1942 (only Blizzard).

As stated in the readme explaining the die rolls:

9) New Feature – Added information regarding weather determination at the top of the German Logistics Phase Event Log. The modified weather die roll and the weather for the turn are listed for each weather zone. Note that the die roll may be overridden by an exception rule leading to weather that does not match the die roll result in the table. Note when playing with non-random weather, the die roll shown in the event log assumes a roll of 5 plus the normal modifiers for each weather zone.

[Varity]

That explains it! Thanks!