Road to Leningrad (Axis) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68)

[joelmar]

For supply, you have understood right.

I don't think this is stated in the manual, but my understanding is that truck usage and wear, along with damage and destruction, is always based on traveled hexes and expended MP's, along like some hidden max travel mileage for trucks, and of course the weather, like for airgroups. So the more miles your trucks need to travel to get supplies to the units, the more trucks will be used. Therefore, if you can get below the min hexes/MP's for supplies delivery, it will be better for truck usage.

I also always try to use the organic trucks of the HQ's to the max and therefore limit the usage for the trucks in the pool. So that means that I try for HQ placement to have the minimum distance possible from HQ to railhead, and then when a few hexes have the same travel costs, I choose the hex that makes the distance to the units as uniform as possible.

That said, I have read at a few places that truck usage is rarely a problem in 1.12.03, and I don't know to what degree it is true. But it is definitely a big factor in 1.11.03

[redrum68]

Turn 3

Panzer Corps Fuel
So I decided to look into the various screens and reports and eventually found kind of what I was looking for. Here is a report that shows the panzer corps and divisions supply phase 1. So the 41st Panzer Corps pulled 185 fuel that it distributed (70, 41, 74) to its divisions. It shows HPD=25 so HM=10/25=0.4 (40), MPD=32 so MPM=20/32=0.62 (62), TM=1, and RM=1. So approximate supply requested should be: Supply = 100% * 0.4 * 0.62 * 1 * 1 = 25%. The report seems to be missing the overall Need but we can estimate that at around (300 + 300 + 160 = 760). And we can see that 760 * 25% = 190 (which is very close to the 185 it shows was received).

The 56th Corps has a bit better hex and distance multipliers so even though its overall Need is less (1 panzer, 1 SS Mot, 1 Mot vs 2 panzers, 1 Mot), it receives more fuel. The units appear to receive a bit more which I think is probably due to the fuel dumps that the 56th Corps had (it showed 66 at the end of turn 2). So unit fuel received was 107 + 75 + 56 = 238 which is just a bit less than 198 + 66 = 264 (guessing the Corps HQ itself consumes some of the dumps first).

But the good news is the numbers for the most part seem to make sense and we can see how important Corps HQ hex/distance from the railhead is to fueling our Panzer Corps. The bad news is well we only got around 25-35% of our fuel this turn...

[redrum68]

Start of Turn 3

Here is what things look like at the start of turn 3 overall and a closer look at the main front near Pskov (and yes I figured out how to merge 2 images). And as you can see the 41st Panzer Corp divisions received around 15 MP while the 56th Panzer Corp divisions got around 20 MP.

[redrum68]

Turn Objectives
1. Take back Pskov and try to press forward with the 41st Panzer Corp where possible
2. Move the 56th Panzer Corp north so its better positioned to help next turn
3. Push all the infantry up to prepare for a full assault on Pskov and across the Velikaya next turn

Summary
Overall, a pretty uneventful turn given the low MP on the Panzer Corps and friendly territory marching for the Infantry. I was able to take back Pskov but again didn't have the MP to move into it. Also was able to at least get the Mech division across the river. Other than that a few minor attacks with a few wins and a few loses as only a few infantry divisions could reach far enough to attack anything.

The good news is that it was a preparation turn and now next turn we should see some infantry attack and the Panzer Corps should refuel to closer to 50% given that the railhead advanced and the Corps HQs stocked more fuel dumps. Here's the end of turn 3:

[eskuche]

A little late, but here are annotated turn 1 airbases for me (different game):
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Here is Telemecus's annotated SU turn 1 airbase targets (post #17):
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 82&mpage=1#

Note the locations of my Ju-87'Ds. Each gruppe of those can take out 2-4 airbases at max range (11 hexes) by themselves, with escort when appropriate.

[eskuche]

Regarding turn 2, something you can consider is not moving every single motorized unit to its max. This way you will have some leftover at ~100% fuel for turn 3. This simulates a HQ buildup, and the reason it is effective is that moving across previously converted terrain, as you see with infantry movement into panzer claimed territory, costs less than half as much MP.

Another point is that having Army/PzGp HQs closer to the units gives the units better checks throughout. You can check the units' roll %'s in the supply details window. Try moving army HQs closer. Now try moving corps HQ's closer. You'll see that the latter has no correlation between distance and rolls, but the former does. This is the command range modifier (11.3.2.2) whereby all rolls have their denominator increased by distance/(number of levels the HQ is higher than the immediate HQ + 1). The practical consequence of this is that, vehicle damage willing, moving Army HQs (higher generally not worth it) to within 2 hexes of any attacking unit gives you most efficient rolls.

[redrum68]

@eskuche - Ok, thanks for the airbase details. I honestly haven't really dove into the air details yet and just doing the bare minimum there as it doesn't seem very intuitive or as important as many other things.

Holding some motorized units back could make sense. Its tough I think in this particular scenario as I only have 6 divisions so not a lot to work with. But I do see that running some forward to turn territory friendly would make movement cheaper.

Oh I see. HQ optimal positioning is still something I don't fully understand. I think I have the basics where you keep all the divisions with 5 hexes and 20 MP of their Corps HQ and then try to keep HQs with 10 hexes and 20 MP of the railhead when possible. But I haven't thought as much about the higher HQs. So do you usually move say the PzGp HQ around during a turn following your attacks? Or is it only its starting position that matters? It would be helpful to see some examples of ideal HQ placement/movement.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Oh I see. HQ optimal positioning is still something I don't fully understand. I think I have the basics where you keep all the divisions with 5 hexes and 20 MP of their Corps HQ and then try to keep HQs with 10 hexes and 20 MP of the railhead when possible. But I haven't thought as much about the higher HQs. So do you usually move say the PzGp HQ around during a turn following your attacks? Or is it only its starting position that matters? It would be helpful to see some examples of ideal HQ placement/movement.

As a rule of thumb I would say just keep the HQs within 5 hexes of their units and then place the HQs as close to the rail as possible. The latter usually will improve supply but will reduce vehicle loss always anyway. Only in bad weather or very bad terrain will 20MPs be important - for the bulk of the time anything within 5 hexes will be less than 20Mps away.

[redrum68]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
As a rule of thumb I would say just keep the HQs within 5 hexes of their units and then place the HQs as close to the rail as possible. The latter usually will improve supply but will reduce vehicle loss always anyway. Only in bad weather or very bad terrain will 20MPs be important - for the bulk of the time anything within 5 hexes will be less than 20Mps away.

And by "HQs" do you just mean the immediate division's HQ (Corps HQ for Germans)? Or do you mean all "HQs" up the chain?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: redrum68

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
As a rule of thumb I would say just keep the HQs within 5 hexes of their units and then place the HQs as close to the rail as possible. The latter usually will improve supply but will reduce vehicle loss always anyway. Only in bad weather or very bad terrain will 20MPs be important - for the bulk of the time anything within 5 hexes will be less than 20Mps away.

And by "HQs" do you just mean the immediate division's HQ (Corps HQ for Germans)? Or do you mean all "HQs" up the chain?

Yes immediate HQs, they are the only ones involved in supply, the higher HQs are not involved at all.

The higher ones are involved in ratings checks. So as eskuche said the next highest HQ should be 1 or less hexes away for no range penalty etc. But this is rare. A good rule of thumb is keep higher HQs as close as possible for ratings checks, but keep them close to rails and not zig zagging to avoid using vehicles too much.

[redrum68]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Yes immediate HQs, they are the only ones involved in supply, the higher HQs are not involved at all.

The higher ones are involved in ratings checks. So as eskuche said the next highest HQ should be 1 or less hexes away for no range penalty etc. But this is rare. A good rule of thumb is keep higher HQs as close as possible for ratings checks, but keep them close to rails and not zig zagging to avoid using vehicles too much.

Ok. Is there any guide on higher HQ placement and ratings checks? Or some good examples? I feel like I'm starting to have a good feel for the Corps HQs but for the higher HQs I feel like I'm just moving them around randomly

[eskuche]

Yep. As I mentioned above it can be good to see the effects for yourself. Specifically for German Corps–Army chain, the Army HQ rolls only if the Corps roll fails. However, immediate HQ (Corps here) roll their rating to pass rand(10) + modifiers, whilst each upward level doubles the roll range (plus modifiers). The distance modifier for two HQs up is distance from higher HQ (Army) to unit divided by two.

You can conclude from this that it’s not mandatory to be within 2 hexes of each battle, especially if the corps commander is good. The difference between being one hex away and ten hexes away changes the Army roll range from 20 to 25, but this is only if the corps roll failed. The strongest effects you’ll see, then, will be for strong army commanders with weak corps commanders. Morale rolls are the exception as they have no distance penalty.

[eskuche]

As an easy minimal test case, look at your airbases and consider only the air rating. Luftflotte 1 should have 1 airbase under direct control and the others under fliegercorps control. See if you can work out the numbers from there moving the HQs around.

An example for AGC air which has the same setup: the airbase directly under Luftflotte will ALWAYS have 80% because Kesselrinf has an 8 rating, and distance to immediate HQ doesn’t matter. Airbases under fliegerkorps VIII (Richthofen has air 8) will range from 80 something % up to 88% when Luftflotte is next to the airbase. This is because there is 80% to pass the roll based on Fliegerkorps. If this fails, (20% of the time) the chance the backup roll will succeed is 8 out of (20 plus distance/2). When distance is zero from airbase to Luftflotte, the 8/20= 40% to succeed if the initial roll fails equals 88% overall rating.

[redrum68]

@eskuche - Ok, that makes sense. I guess in theory having your Army leader almost "fill the weak spots" and have high ratings where your Corps leaders have low ratings would be ideal. Though it generally seems at least in the scenario I'm playing that most leader ratings are fairly even (I don't see many 3 admin, 9 initiate leaders as most are like 5/6/7 across the board).

The air example makes sense and also leads to the conclusion that generally you want to push air bases and divisions as far down the chain as possible so they get more leader check opportunities. In your example, trying to re-assign the airbase directly under Luftflotte to fliegerkorps VIII as long as it has the command capacity since the leaders have equal ratings.

I guess what I'm interested in is how players actually apply this knowledge to the game? Are most people driving their Army leader "across the front" as they do various battles to get better check percentages and using up most of the HQ MP each turn? Or do most players just put it somewhere at the beginning or end of the turn and let it sit there as that's good enough and I guess would save trucks?

[eskuche]

A rather esoteric exception is that if a unit is directly attached to a non-lowest HQ the HQ needs to be 1-4 spaces to allow checks. See for example RHG commands which are army level.

Like joelmar said above, trucks seem to be not a limiting factor in 1.12 versions so I will move around army and luftflotte HQs as needed (when I have the mental capacity to do so). If one were playing perfectly they would assign expensive (in terms of trucks) SUs down from army into corps before starting the moving. Remember the additional cost for moving is one truck per supply or fuel dump per 100% movement. So the army HQs potentially spend an additional 1000 trucks per turn each moving. You can decide whether and where that’s worth the 1-10% boost to ratings for attack, e.g. for weak Romanian commanders.

[eskuche]

Also note that in v1.12+ you can see how many trucks a unit uses for resupply (separate from movement truck use which is tied to dumps in HQ units) at the bottom of the supply details screen

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: redrum68
I guess what I'm interested in is how players actually apply this knowledge to the game? Are most people driving their Army leader "across the front" as they do various battles to get better check percentages and using up most of the HQ MP each turn? Or do most players just put it somewhere at the beginning or end of the turn and let it sit there as that's good enough and I guess would save trucks?

In v1.11.03, and I think still best practise for v1.12, do not put the High Commands or Army group HQs so far forward that their rail repair construction units are out of range for rail repair. This particualrly seems to happen with AGS HQ in many games I have seen.

In v1.11.03 I would tend to only drive the higher HQs in staright lines eastward and not zig zag. So for example I might drive 18th army right to the Neva river so that it is close for the critical battle when you try to cross the river to capture Leningrad. I would not deviate it to Talinn for one battle and then down to Velkie Luki say for another. So my principle is so long as you are not zig zagging it is OK to drive army HQs up to the front lines and ideally to the key battle each turn. If there is no key battle then leave the army HQ and other HQs on a repaired rail line hex or at least do not move it further away from one.

As eskuche pointed out this might not be valid anymore for v1.12 for truck use. Nevertheless there may be other reasons. For example driving an HQ with SUs containing AFVs (e.g. StuGs) can lead to significant damage of their armoured vehicles. So it might still make sense to avoid driving HQs with those SUs inside them. Although you still have the option of assigning them down first before moving the army HQ.

[redrum68]

Ok, that makes sense. Essentially try to prioritize having them close to major battles but don't run them all over the place.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Ok, that makes sense. Essentially try to prioritize having them close to major battles but don't run them all over the place.

perfectly put - I wish I had thought of those succinct words!

[redrum68]

Turn 4

So after a pretty quiet turn 3, the German infantry are poised to capture Pskov and the Finnish front unlocks so lots of potential for action! The Soviet AI has decided to leave significant forces to hold Pskov which we will try to make him pay for.

Turn Objectives
1. Capture and hold Pskov
2. Pocket as many Soviet divisions as possible around Pskov especially armor and motorized
3. Begin the assault on the Finnish front

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts: