Red Star Ascending Axis (BrianG) VS Soviet (HLYA) All Welcome

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)

I'm not sure I agree with this or, rather, that it needs to be put in correct context. I can't say which version you were playing or when you had this conversation, but during the time I was playing around 2014/2015 (around the same time that I know Pelton for one had this view) with versions 1.07 and before, what Pelton and Michael T were saying was absolutely 100% true. Given a competent SHC play, it was nearly impossible for the Germans to take both Lenningrad and Moscow. Rather, the Soviets could pretty much decide between the North (Len) Center, and South that they weren't going to let the Germans drive there and they could stop them. So if the Russians decided they wanted to hold Lenningrad or Moscow, they could, but often at the expense of the other. From what I've been reading under more current versions of the game, taking both happens far more than it should or did previously.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

I have made the decision to not post much on your AAR, as I have been giving out a few thoughts on BrianG's version. I don't want to come across as an armchair general who reads one AAR in order to move to the other to give some "insights", and then return to the first one.

That being said, I have had much the same thoughts on stopping to write my AAR's.

I can understand that. But BrianG can read this AAR too so no problem either way if you like to comment or not. Always appreciated your comments especially the deep analysis you do . Our debate on U-2s have me using them until 42 at the moment (even though now I am converting over to FB instead of U-2's, yes I am changing again with my thinking)

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

I began writing AAR's in the hope that they could spark some discussions on the game, and that I could actually learn something from this. Instead it seems I often post four AAR's or more in a row with no meaningfull feedback. There are no questions forcing me to look at my strategy from another perspective, there are no comments presenting me with a perspective other than my own and there is generally no comments at all. All in all, I probably spend an hour or two on every AAR and learn absolutely nothing in return. IT is a very valid question to ask if it is simply not just a waste of time to write them.

I know your AAR's are very detailed and very good and we are on the same page about interaction on the AAR's.

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
1st, actually it is ALL hexes are stacked 3 high in Leningrad. With all the hexes in and around Leningrad filled with units any attack by the Germans would route the Soviet unit to the east instead of into Leningrad proper. Thus freeing them from the pot if you will. Any unit hungry German would not want to attack to lose a "juicy" morsel Since I had the front line stacked with large defense values and after Brians first attack sending the first set of 3 units far to the east it looks like he made the decision to cut off Leningrad proper. He wanted to force surrender all the units I guess. If he pursued a direct frontal assault all of those Guard units and units in general would 100% route to the east. So I set it up to go either way. With few towns in the north those units route way to the East on to a rail hex normally. Once they rally they are ready to go south

Not sure I like this approach. Retreat casualties are increased for routing over long distances, and losing 50% of two divisions is pretty much the same as losing one whole division in my view. What sort of rout losses do you take in the north? Yes, I relaize that the remains will fill up faster and train back to combat level quicker when the unit is retained, but you do have two units to retrain rather than one, so the total amount of time lost might not be very different.

It was just a way to not have the unit "surrender" if BrianG went directly for Leningrad. The loses to me at this point in the War I don't pay much attention to Soviet loses since I am just looking for "time".

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
2nd, Many of those units in the rear were brigades set at 70% and division set at 20% TOE along with some AT Brigades set at 20%. If Brian wanted to cut off the ports these units can do one of two things. They can be ported out quickly being under 300 capacity OR they can be used to bring a front line division back up to full strength. Matter fact all units that are killed I use as replacement brigades/Divisions to my other Divisions on the map. It is a nifty replacement system once set up correctly. Many of these 20% TOE replacement divisions are nearing 40 experience so not much of an experience hit either

This replacement system is an excellent way to keep an offense going. You really only have to worry about the fatigue since you replace back to full every turn. I now have division at 20%, 30%, and 40% TOE in key areas of attacks. I do the same thing for my Armor Corps. Every Turn they are full strength.

Not to mention this is how you can get your Armor Corps high in Experience pretty quickly. Yes, when you convert 3 armor brigades into an Armor Corps your experience goes through the floor. Now if you take the corps and add in your top experienced armor brigades you start to quickly bring that experience up. I guess I should stop giving out too much information

Smart. I haven't thought of that. It does seem rather "gamey" however. Merging formations like this should certainly spend all MP on the merged divisions and require that no MP was spent prior to the merging. The Germans were able to form Kampfgruppen at a moments notice, but not the Soviets.

Some would consider it "gamey" for sure. Personally just looking to try and get ahead of the powerful German Army any way I can. It has always been in the game for the Soviets(and Germans if they want to) do this. Just the recent patch gave the unit back as a reinforcement where before it did not.

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3rd, There was an opportunity to use the 6 Cav Corps to try and do an offense towards Finland. Finlands border with Leningrad was only guarded by Regiments. Instead I decided to use them just to cause loses to the Germans. I have pretty much shunned attacking any other nationality besides the Germans until turn 53. (I should have tried Finland, that would have been interesting to say the least. But kind of defeated my purpose of inflicting loses on Germans)

Bear in mind that once Leningrad falls the Finns will be out of the POW camp and back in the game. If nothing else, they can replace German units on the northernmost stretch of the front and thus help strengthening the Wehrmacht. With the risk of losing Leningrad, I believe you have to reevaluate the strategic importance of the Finns.

Same thing with the other Axis Minors. I tend not to seperate them to much from the Germans, as they can raplace German units on the frontline. The better shape they are in, the better a job they can do.

Incidentally, what are your current success criteria for this game?

I have no intention of staying close to the Finns for very long. Yes, I am suggesting what you may be thinking already. There is no need for me to take extra losses to the Finns when I can stay away from them. All this changes a bit if German PZ's stay up in this area but as of the 1st week of July German PZ's are still here.


My current success criteria for this game in 1942 is to constantly make the Germans react to my thrusts instead of me, as the Soviet, reacting to German thrust. If I can control this game of "cat and mouse" like this until the end of 42 I should easily be pushing hard in mid 43 onwards. Currently the PZ's in the south there are a few in the 6-8 CV range after reacting to my recent thrust there. yes the Germans surrounded units in the south but I was able to cut the rail line on multiple hexes & stop the German offensive towards Stalingrad, our Supreme leaders City!!!! A city the Germans WILL NOT get close to. Or some heads are going to roll ;-P (The surrounded units were only mostly junk CAV units)

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hyla, I enjoy reading your AARs very much.

I think it was you that mentioned a work around for the Soviets slow experience gain, which would be detailed in and AAR??? Please?

I semi outlined a bit of this already. Granted it does not work to well in the early stages of the war but pays dividends going into 42 for sure

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS





You may consider yourself under arrest, Comrade General Armii. You were going to a position in the Far East, but now it's a show trial and twenty years hard labor at a rehabilitation camp.

I know I know, I am guilty. Take me away please.

I was actually referring to EvK.

GAWD, I sux at reading and writing comprehension …..

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: MattFL

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. Being able to take Moscow consistently (and Leningrad by default) Before the conventional wisdom was Moscow could be defended. I was ridiculed by Pelton and Michael T as a pipe dream move)

I'm not sure I agree with this or, rather, that it needs to be put in correct context. I can't say which version you were playing or when you had this conversation, but during the time I was playing around 2014/2015 (around the same time that I know Pelton for one had this view) with versions 1.07 and before, what Pelton and Michael T were saying was absolutely 100% true. Given a competent SHC play, it was nearly impossible for the Germans to take both Lenningrad and Moscow. Rather, the Soviets could pretty much decide between the North (Len) Center, and South that they weren't going to let the Germans drive there and they could stop them. So if the Russians decided they wanted to hold Lenningrad or Moscow, they could, but often at the expense of the other. From what I've been reading under more current versions of the game, taking both happens far more than it should or did previously.

It is good to disagree I have been playing since WITE released(Fire in the East & Scorched Earth board games before that). Granted I never posted on the forums even under my old alias's. But I can say emphatically that both cities could be taken even in most patches before 1.08 where the workings were even more Pro German with the supply system and the air drops. The only rule inhibiting this was the +1 Soviet attack which would require just a bit of different play style to accomplish.

There is nothing wrong with their view(Pelton/MT). I just never catered to it since much of what Pelton was stressing back then was Souths industry. It is a good strategy, just not mine. To me it has always been about "manpower". Without men there is no one to man the items the factories make.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I have been playing since WITE released(Fire in the East & Scorched Earth board games before that). Granted I never posted on the forums even under my old alias's. But I can say emphatically that both cities could be taken even in most patches before 1.08 where the workings were even more Pro German with the supply system and the air drops. The only rule inhibiting this was the +1 Soviet attack which would require just a bit of different play style to accomplish.

There is nothing wrong with their view(Pelton/MT). I just never catered to it since much of what Pelton was stressing back then was Souths industry. It is a good strategy, just not mine. To me it has always been about "manpower". Without men there is no one to man the items the factories make.

Ahh, Scorched Earth. You truly are a masochist. For my east front boardgames, I tended to stick with lighter fare such as AH's Russian Front and before that The Russian Campaign. Would be interesting to try playing those on Vassal now so the cat can't destroy 2 months playing......

I miss boardgames. Now the only ones I play (and I haven't for a few years now) are Advanced Squad Leader and for a break the Line of Battle Series of ACW games on vassal. ASL is my first love, but I get too addicted to it at the expense of just about everything and need to quit every several years for a few years.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: MattFL

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I have been playing since WITE released(Fire in the East & Scorched Earth board games before that). Granted I never posted on the forums even under my old alias's. But I can say emphatically that both cities could be taken even in most patches before 1.08 where the workings were even more Pro German with the supply system and the air drops. The only rule inhibiting this was the +1 Soviet attack which would require just a bit of different play style to accomplish.

There is nothing wrong with their view(Pelton/MT). I just never catered to it since much of what Pelton was stressing back then was Souths industry. It is a good strategy, just not mine. To me it has always been about "manpower". Without men there is no one to man the items the factories make.

Ahh, Scorched Earth. You truly are a masochist. For my east front boardgames, I tended to stick with lighter fare such as AH's Russian Front and before that The Russian Campaign. Would be interesting to try playing those on Vassal now so the cat can't destroy 2 months playing......

I miss boardgames. Now the only ones I play (and I haven't for a few years now) are Advanced Squad Leader and for a break the Line of Battle Series of ACW games on vassal. ASL is my first love, but I get too addicted to it at the expense of just about everything and need to quit every several years for a few years.

Loved AH games too. Wore the counters out on my “The Russian Campaign” game. In the end I had 3 copies with two of those copies with badly worn out counters (now where did I put my 3rd Stuka counter!!!!!). Absolutely loved Squad leader (original) and made the transition to Advanced Squad leader with its encyclopidea size rule book ;-P. Had many many many fun hours playing people those games in the US Marine Corps. Ok lets Prep fire, advancing fire, defensive fire.... gawd the memories. But still my two favorite has been AH Longest Day and Fire In the East/Scorched Earth. Something about monster games makes me all excited .

But I am with you I miss the board games but not looking for counters or setting up the game . Thank you for the memory lane rememberance.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Loved AH games too. Wore the counters out on my “The Russian Campaign” game. In the end I had 3 copies with two of those copies with badly worn out counters (now where did I put my 3rd Stuka counter!!!!!). Absolutely loved Squad leader (original) and made the transition to Advanced Squad leader with its encyclopidea size rule book ;-P. Had many many many fun hours playing people those games in the US Marine Corps. Ok lets Prep fire, advancing fire, defensive fire.... gawd the memories. But still my two favorite has been AH Longest Day and Fire In the East/Scorched Earth. Something about monster games makes me all excited .

So funny, I was so close to saying in my original post "I bet you liked The Longest Day too." [:D] Nuts man, too many counters and too small a dining room table (though I did play Wellington's Victory quite a bit).

I failed to mention in my first post that I don't actually play the paper and counter boardgames for years now, I only play them on Vassal (www.vassalengine.org). If you haven't seen it, you should check it out. Best of both worlds - you get to have the total experience of playing those games (including Longest Day/Fire in the East), but all the setups are 100% done already, all of the counters neatly organized, and you can find opponents all over the world without leaving your desk. The experiences with these games are of course what draws folks like us to WiTE and what allows, at least me, to be relatively competitive despite not knowing so much about what goes on under the hood or maximizing other nuances. You have the gaming experience and a far greater understanding of the WiTE engine/nuances which makes you dangerous indeed...........