RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis)

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
SB-2 to Pe-2 which is not so much of an upgrade since the payloads are equal but the SB2 has better range. Of course, the SB-2 pools will eventually run out, needing this done.

If the SB-2 is better, or at least more useful for your playstyle, would it be worth giving the U option to the least experienced groups first and work upwards rather than starting with most experienced?

At this stage, my expectation is that the Pe-2 and SB-2 as "fast bombers" will fill the same role of attacking ground targets from within the Frontal Air Commands. As HLYA posted in another thread, I did not conduct any bombing this week. This was due to the higher fatigue levels of many air units. Next week, many of these will be at morale 50+ and less fatigued. Since they will be deploying from reserves over the next week or two, there will probably not be significant VVS activity then either. After that, full scale air operations should be expected.

[Dinglir]

Is your assessment that the two aircraft has about the same survivability, or is it that you just do not care?

Are you using them for day or night bombing?

[ericv]

I have always tried to get the good soviet commanders as far away from the action as possible in the early weeks. Many times, they end up getting sacked thereby losing valuable rating points.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Is your assessment that the two aircraft has about the same survivability, or is it that you just do not care?

Are you using them for day or night bombing?

The Pe-2 would seem to have more survivability, but I would still want the SB-2 force used up to the greatest extent. As the pools run low, I would do the Upgrade "U" for the highest experienced units, just as I did last turn with I-153BS.

Fast bombers for day and long range for night is the current plan. That may be influenced from time to time depending on whether he is flying CAP or not.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: ericv

I have always tried to get the good soviet commanders as far away from the action as possible in the early weeks. Many times, they end up getting sacked thereby losing valuable rating points.

HLYA is all about the early game. He will do everything he can to see the war over before winter comes. I can't afford to leave CV off the table even if it costs some excellent generals a bit of their rating.

[M60A3TTS]

Week 4-- 10-16 July 1941


Industrial Evacuations take place with 16 total arms at Moscow and Poltava and 4 heavy industry at Kiev.

Air Situation

A transfer of fast bombers to Western Air Command is the first step in preparation for attacks against German ground troops. The attacks reveal no Luftwaffe CAP flying, so unescorted missions from the fast and long range bomber forces take place in two battle zones. Long Range Air Command with IL-4, DB-3B and TB-3 bombers attacks ground units west of Smolensk, along with 8 SB-2 regiments of Western Air Command. A second set of attacks is mounted near Cherkassy in the south by Southwestern and Southern Air Commands with both long range and fast bombers where the Axis appears ready to mount a river crossing. 48 ground missions are conducted vs the Axis 20.

Most enemy air activity are recon missions performed by mid-range recon planes. None of the short range types are evident. His cluster of airbases remain well back from the front.

Air units that have recovered sufficient morale are brought up to counter Axis moves anticipated next week. Only 10 of 318 air units are less than 50 morale.

Black Sea Fleet Air command withdraws from Crimea and moves to support from the Kuban region. SU-2 and MiG 3 will be assigned there later and will have range to cover Sevastopol.

There are two aircraft types that are not going to see much in the way of commitment, I-153 and I-15BS biplane FBs. They will continue to be morale cycled until they are upgraded.

[M60A3TTS]

Ground situation

The Finnish attack along the border does not go as well as hoped and we still have divisions in a position to be cut off next week.



There is not a significant move against our units elsewhere as presumably some are already re-supplying

The defense near Pskov is totally inadequate at this stage and a turn north by even one panzer group could spell big trouble. There simply aren't enough units to cover every possible direction he may go.




The center has the largest buildup of arriving units as 20th, 24th, 39th and 31st Armies form Reserve Front.



A flurry of command changes accompany their arrival.

Western Front Pavlov D.>Zhukov G.
10th Army Golubev>Malinovsky R.
8th Army Sobennikov>Khozin M.
11th Army Morozov V. > Gordov V.
33rd Cavalry Army Onuprienko>Vasilevsky A.
34th Cavalry Army Pronin M. > Bobkin L.

Ivan Kopets of Western Air Command did not have the opportunity to be replaced and is executed instead.


In the south, the Dnepr is defended with additional units from Southern Front and a STAVKA mechanized corps staged to the east in order to protect Kharkov.



A few corps HQ are disbanded and some higher morale divisions swapped from divisions not on the main German axis of advance.

[Crackaces]

The JanisJarvi looks secure . If a breakout does not occur and the Soviets are allowed to dig in .. the line will never be broken ..

[M60A3TTS]

Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941

HLYA identifies the weakness at Pskov with the help of a recon blanket of the area as AGN thrusts north, crosses the Luga and takes Novgorod. In his move towards Leningrad with this “Pskov Grouping” are four panzer and two SS motorized divisions. It is the equivalent of two panzer corps but only the 41st being really identified in the area. Only four divisions are trapped here, but several more will certainly be trapped as well next week.

Most factories leave Leningrad as 83% of railcap this week is committed to this task. There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility. Beyond that, he will likely need time to push elements of 16th or 18th Armies to the Neva. The Finnish battles are going poorly and I would give myself an “F” for even trying to stem the tide. That move is going to cost a good 6-8 divisions needlessly.

In the center, no real action is apparent, so a HQBU is likely for at least one or two panzer corps. Guderian's 57th likely will be one of them. There are four potentially lined up to push center next week. Most of the Soviet rifle corps HQ are gone now, so with good army commanders there are decent strength rifle divisions in a number of areas under Western and Reserve Fronts. The difficulty is there just are not enough overall to cope with these high CV panzers. Retreat is necessary to some degree, but the amount of real estate in the rear is going to run out quickly. Reserve activations are set across the line. I start on a couple fortified zones close to Moscow.

In the south, he has committed 3, 47, 48 PanzerKorps with six panzer and three motorized divisions. Also in the area are GrossDeutschland MRR and 1st Cavalry Division. The 3rd Panzer Corps towards the rear is likely receiving a HQBU this turn. With two panzer corps having limited fuel at Dnepropetrovsk-Zaporozhye, I am assuming he will breach the Dnepr at that location. This will put him on a straight line towards Stalino and the strategic objective of Rostov. He could double back towards Cherkassy, but that would mean wasted fuel. For that reason, the defensive line near Kiev is very thin while relatively stronger as the line moves to the southeast. Only one of the four Soviet Army HQ have made it back from the Lvov pocket, so command and control is a bit of a challenge. I do have one mechanized corps under Krivoshein who is a decent armor commander assisting with the Dnepr defense. A STAVKA cavalry army is also available for defensive duties.

[M60A3TTS]

Northern Situation



Center Situation



Southern Situation

[M60A3TTS]

Before covering the air situation, a couple spreadsheets I use here.

The first helps determine what type of aircraft numbers exist. One of the columns is TMAR, or theoretical maximum allowable in regiments. In the early game it should really be TMARB, 'B' for battalions. Essentially if all units were 100% strength, it is how many planes would be required. Comparing that to the aircraft available and in the pool, I can easily see where shortages may crop up. In this example, the Polikarpov I-16 Type 18 has enough additional planes to support another 5 regiments roughly. But given losses to come, I really only have 100 left to spare. Only the SU-2 has a clear shortage here, so I will try to get the AI to swap them for free to IL-2.



The second sheet provides build and aircraft performance data. Knowing aircraft range is particularly important in planning future air activities.



The letter 'A' in the building column indicates the aircraft is actively produced.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

[TheFox]

Any chance of a copy of those air charts or a pointer to a forum link for them please?

Fox [&o]

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: TheFox

Any chance of a copy of those air charts or a pointer to a forum link for them please?

Fox [&o]

PM sent with file

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

Does that mean you can evacuate by sea normally but not when the city is ZOC locked. Although in other cases if the city is ZOCed you would just pay double to evacuate by overland rail. There is a rail line from Leningrad that goes 81,16 to 81,15 to 82,15 and then by sea evac. Getting to Mga would not ZOC any part of that line?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

Does that mean you can evacuate by sea normally but not when the city is ZOC locked. Although in other cases if the city is ZOCed you would just pay double to evacuate by overland rail. There is a rail line from Leningrad that goes 81,16 to 81,15 to 82,15 and then by sea evac. Getting to Mga would not ZOC any part of that line?

Found the link here

tm.asp?m=4266269&mpage=4&key=Stelteck%2 ... d%2Codessa

Got it - I think the point is the rail line still has to be 0MP - so rail to port does not work. Only evac from a hex already on a port. So it would work in Odessa, say, but not Leningrad even if there is no ZOC on city or rail.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

1.08.08 states that you can evacuate through a ZOC but costs are doubled.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

1.08.08 states that you can evacuate through a ZOC but costs are doubled.

You can evacuate from a city where the enemy is adjacent IF you have a rail line back to the east that is not ZOC locked.

And the proof...

[Crackaces]

I don't understand the concept of "double the costs" I assume rail cap? If so, is this cumulative or a 1 time no matter how many zoc's crossed penalty.