Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar

[IdahoNYer]

Thanks Fishbed, Scar and I are going to the bitter end. Its been fun.

Here are the forces for the final summer offensive.

Still looking good in AFVs!

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 211; Jun 28, 1945......Clear and Mud

General Mud makes an appearance in Jun which is welcome as it pretty much covers everything from the Riga Line south to just north of the Hun 2nd Army's positions. The Soviets make a few attacks in the mud, and are easily repulsed.

The crisis continues in the south however as clear weather here allows the Soviets to push more across the Dnester River.

12th Army stands up with two corps - one the XXXIX PzKps, just arriving from near Riga which goes into a defensive line just forward of the Prut river along some rough terrain to maintain contact with 1st Pz Armee pulling back northwest. The Hungarians slow the withdrawal a bit, as do some of 1st Pz Armee's forward infantry. 12th Army's right flank is weak - extending to maintain contact with 17th Army. We'll have to pull 17th Army back from the Dnester here shortly, and also start preparing for a Rumanian surrender. My plan here is to leave Rumanians forward to man positions and delay the Russians while I pull the German 17th Army west.

In any case, I'll have to reinforce Rumania with some additional forces - man the Prut River Line and garrison Bucharest and a supply line to Hungary for when Rumania collapses.

[hfarrish]

Amazing that Scar has 7M men at this point in the game (and props to him for fighting it out, I don't always have the same fortitude). Is that attributable to losses, industrial or unit wise, in 41/42 or just lack of APs, do you think?

[juret]

DEFEND THE motherland!

[IdahoNYer]

hfarrish - I have no idea..will have to wait till end game and have Scar answer that. I "hope" it's due to the Germans holding a large chunk of personnel centers well into '44

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 212; Jul 5, 1945.......clear with mud in South Soviet.

The mud last turn across most of the front kept things quiet north of the Hun 2nd Army. There, the Soviets struck, and continued to press a gap between Army Group North and South Ukraine - being held thinly now by the newly formed 12th Army.

Both the Hun 2nd Army and 1st Pz Armee hastily fall back - at least as fast as they can with the mud.

Of course, now was NOT the time for mud in the south as Soviet attacks isolated a Ger Pz Div (along with a Rum div) - but we can't pick when General Mud comes to help out, or where. And even if I write this division off - no hope for relief - the mud will put the brakes on the Soviet Steamroller here in the south.

17th Army begins to pull of the fortified line after Kishinev falls - the army is now truly flanked, and needs to pull back toward the Rumanian border. Rumanians are left to man the forts if the Soviets want to attack in mud, at least they force casualties. And truly, I might as well start to attritt the Rumanians before they switch sides.

[KamilS]

It is ridiculous how weak German army gets in '45. Despite massive over-performance it is same old story of artificially strengthening Soviet and weakening Germans.


It was mentioned several times, but it do not make it less annoying.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

It is ridiculous how weak German army gets in '45. Despite massive over-performance it is same old story of artificially strengthening Soviet and weakening Germans.


It was mentioned several times, but it do not make it less annoying.

Oh please. German army has 3.7 million men. The Soviets aren't even into Rumania in July '45 here.

[KamilS]

M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

It is ridiculous how weak German army gets in '45. Despite massive over-performance it is same old story of artificially strengthening Soviet and weakening Germans.


It was mentioned several times, but it do not make it less annoying.

Oh please. German army has 3.7 million men. The Soviets aren't even into Rumania in July '45 here.

I think You got it completely wrong.

German army is very big, has plenty of tanks, on the other hand Soviet jugernaut isn't particulary mighty, yet Red side has great quality advantage. Why did it has to happened? How does it reflect in-game situation?

Not going into details (I do not want to hijack this excellent AAR) I think, that since '44 onwards game sadly becomes very poor - choices are restrited so much that there is not much fun left. (that doesn't change the fact that initiall years are great)

[randallw]

Idaho, what soft toggle are the units set to?

[IdahoNYer]

Kamil - I think we're about a 18mo behind to historical Soviet capability vs the German army. So, the Soviets here in '45 are pushing the Germans back as they historically could have in late '43 or '44.

Until the panzerwaffe was neutered by the Mar 45 upgrade and panzer production shut off, the panzers still had a pretty good counterattack capability up to that point. That last TOE upgrade is really the only qualm I have with the system - it could always be a bit better in some areas - and the upgrades have certainly helped. But nothing seriously has been "wrong" and overall the Germans were able to mount some very potent counterattacks giving the Soviets some pause. Not to mention a very good defensive capability throughout the war.

But since the March 45 TOE "upgrade" and the ceasing of panzer production completely, the "Downfall" is progressing rapidly. Playing into Jul 45 has certainly made me a fan of the alt victory conditions I've heard of.........next time.

[IdahoNYer]

randallw - supplies

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 213; Jul 12, 1945.......clear

With clear weather across the entire front, I expected a major push against AGC - and it didn't happen. The tank armies that pushed toward Riga have also disappeared as well.

So for AGN and AGC - all quiet on the Russian Front.

The crises widens in the south however.......

[IdahoNYer]

Screen shot prior to German moves....

Here, south of the Pripet, the Soviets attack clean through the southern corps of the Hun 1st Army. They strike deep and widen the penetration - exploiting past the next set of level three forts, manned only by fortified units to a depth of 100 miles in some places and widen the penetration to about 50 miles.

This caught me completely by surprise. Got lazy in my recon I guess, but didn't see the tank armies massing (about 5-7 or so). This of course not only unhinges the defenses of Armee Group North Ukraine, but endangers the entire 6th Army sticking out in a very narrow salient near Zhitomir.

My goal at this point is to extract as much of the 6th Army as possible. I'll pull some "excess" strength from 6th SS Pz Armee and reinforce 8th Army on the north side of the penetration (Hun 1st Army is played out...), and re-orient 4th Pz Armee (still with 3xPzKps "on paper") to allow 6th Pz Armee to pull back.

Shifting 4th Pz of course will weaken the other crisis - that against Armee Group South Ukraine - slowed now my General Mud's previous appearance.

This one is going to be tough!

[IdahoNYer]

Armee Group South Ukraine gets some respite from General Mud's showing last turn. Nothing happens. Nada. Not even the encircled Fuhrer Grenadier Pz Div is attacked, north the Rumanian screen line along the Dnestr River.

Small miracles.....

This gives me some breathing room - a turn - but, heck, I'll take it.......

The question is whether that mass of Soviet armor across from 12th Army pushes NW toward Lvov, or turns south to take Rumania out of the war....

I plan on only delaying in Rumania with the 17th Army. 12th Army will remain on 1st Pz Armee's flank as it pulls northwest. He's got a very long way to go through Rumania if he runs that way - its just too challenging to defend properly after he crosses the Prut River into Rumania proper. Too open and the front expands just too much to be practical to defend in strength.

[randallw]

Kamil says the Soviet side has an advantage in 'quality'; are you seeing that, in terms of unit experience?

Maybe you could explain what you meant ( Kamil ).

[Flaviusx]

By this stage, unit quality is converging. Guards units in particular will be equal to or better than German forces, excepting perhaps some of the more elite units, but easily competitive with regulars and then some. Presumably that's what Kamil is referring to. This is just going by yearly national morale.

Given the game's extremely loose logistics, in the late war period it's very possible for things to snowball and the Soviet to depress Axis unit quality beyond the bare NM norms by nonstop offensives that batter unit morale, while jacking up their own. That hasn't happened in this game though, which is headed for a marginal Axis victory or at the very worst just shy of that. (If you're like me and don't believe in this whole post May 45 extra innings business, you'll consider the game over and the Axis having clinched a marginal victory already, but that's a different rant.)

Idaho has fought an exceptional defensive campaign here and prevented a Soviet runaway, but it's a real problem in the late war period.

[KamilS]

randallw

Kamil says the Soviet side has an advantage in 'quality'; are you seeing that, in terms of unit experience?

Maybe you could explain what you meant ( Kamil ).

Flaviusx summarised it nicely

Flaviusx

Given the game's extremely loose logistics, in the late war period it's very possible for things to snowball and the Soviet to depress Axis unit quality beyond the bare NM norms by nonstop offensives that batter unit morale, while jacking up their own.

[Flaviusx]

To add further to my comments above, consider the historical 1944 summer offensives. As things presently stand, it is nearly impossible to duplicate what happened historically. If the Soviet Union pulls off a Bagration, he's not going to stop at the Vistula due to logistical exhaustion. He'll just keep moving forward until mud hits. The German cannot do what Model did historically and scrape up enough guys to patch together the front and halt the Sovs while their supply lines catch up.

The morale system in the game creates a feedback loop here when combined with this logistical situation: nothing succeeds like success. The more you win, the better your morale and the worse the morale of the other guy. Over time we've put various limits to this and soft caps, but the feedback loop with morale is still there.

Op tempo is just too high. This is true for both sides, and I've been saying this forever. There's lots of things in the pipeline to address these issues in WITW, but there it is.

[IdahoNYer]

Agree 100% Flaviusx!! The panzers have kept a reasonable morale throughout the war - the infantry are mere shells of their former self as they have taken the brunt of the massed rifle corps attacks. The other issue is the forced experience loss as years go by regardless of actual casualties.

As for the tempo issue - again, agree 100% as this is a major issue - for both sides. To me, a fairly simple fix, which would more reflect historical capabilities is massively restrict the amount of supply an HQ can carry with it as it moves. The "HQ" in the game are a abstraction of both the comannd and control HQs and the logistical tails in the respective Army, Front, Corps etc. While the Command Posts could be somewhat agile (again a bit too easy to move in the game at the higher echelon levels), the logistical supply aspect represent both the supply "dumps" and the transport to distribute the that supply. The problem is that when a real world supply "dump" needs to move, all those trucks used for distro are now tied up moving the supplies to a new location, and are not available to distro the supply. Not so in the game, no real loss of effectiveness when a HQ moves. Not to mention the time it would take to "pack up" a large, corps or army level supply dump.

What I think would work well is what is found in WiTP AE when units have to go into strategic mode to be loaded on ships. Same principle here. A HQ can either move tactically, keeping its C2 capability but losing most (I'd say 90% of its supplies) the moment it moves a hex, and could move its full movement allowance. It would still be able distro those 10% amount of supplies to units. Next turn, it would begin re-stocking its supplies and function normally if it did not move. Perhaps corps (Soviet army) HQs could carry a larger percentage. Instead of moving tactically, a player could put his HQ in strategic mode. In this mode its command radius would be reduced by 75% - pretty much non functional - but it could move with up to 75% of its supply carried - Railmode automatically puts a HQ in strategic mode. Corps and Russian Army HQs could go into/out of strat mode in the same turn, taking maybe 33% of APs to do so. German Army and Soviet Front HQs could change mode at a cost of 80% of their APs.

Something to this effect would definately force decisions for a player to either 1) continue attacking once he's past the effective range of supply at a much degraded level as supplies diminish, or 2) pause the attack and wait for HQs to pack up, and catch up. This would give a much better feel for what you describe Flaviusx, allowing Model to scratch together a thin line as the Soviets packed up thier HQs and moved them forward.

This would also fix the HQ's "muling" issue I've read about in the forums.

Obviously something like this would need some playtesting to get the numbers right, and might be beyond the scope of the current system.