Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar

[Flaviusx]

This is a pretty neat idea about the HQs, Idaho. I like it.

[IdahoNYer]

But is is practical with the current system is the question?

[Flaviusx]

I think not, unfortunately. This is a major coding change. Perhaps some mod guru out there could put something like this together, but the game isn't all that mod friendly.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 213, after German moves.....

Wow, somehow it worked! German panzerwaffe can STILL manage some sort of counterattack at this stage of the war! Nice to know...

To deal with the Soviet breakthrough, the objective is twofold - first and foremost, extract 6th Army. Second, blunt the Soviet spearhead to preserve the next fortified positions. If possible, destroy Soviet armor of course.

To do this, I scrape together the panzerwaffe from 4th Pz Army - all three Pzkps totalling 5xPz and 2xPG Divs, about 600 or so AFVs, about a third of them in GD PG. The best of them I form up in XXIV PzKps. I leave two weaker PZ in LVI PzKps, leaving the IV SS PzKps with infantry only.

XXIV PzKps - also including two Tiger battalions, and assisted by 6th Army's 16th Pz Div, routs the 18th TK CP and then moves on to push back the 3rd Gd Mech CP. Although Soviet tank losses are about 3-1 to the Germans favor, the XXIV PzKps is now played out - and still has to pull back to the west. However, this attack alone allows 6th Army freedom of movement and it safely pulls back to the west - in some disorder, mixing with retreating elements of 4th Pz and Hun 2nd Armies, but most units pull back safely.

LVI PzKps now "exploits" the attack of XXIV PzKps. "Exploit" in 1945 is much different than "Exploiting" in 1941 of course.... The objective now is simply to cut the Soviet tank spearhead off to delay the advance - no hope of doing anything more dramatic. To this end, with 19th Pz on the right, and 1st Pz on the left, the PzKps conducts the ride of the Valkaries running through the Soviet lines much as Jeb Stuart once did to the Union in America's Civil War. 1st Pz actually does almost ride a ring around the Soviet lead elements. 19th Pz reaches the XXXXI PzKps of 8th Army and is transferred to that PzKps.

The result of that exploitation is that the lead Soviet elements are, for the moment, isolated. With some Hungarian 1st Army remnants left in the Soviet rear area, and it's lead elements isolated, this should, slow the Soviet Juggernaut to allow 6th Army to reposition along the fortified Goryn River line.

Of course, with 4th Pz Armee counter-attacking northwards, the Hun 2nd Army will need to expand north to cover 4th Pz Armee's area....which is not generally a good idea, but for now, its the best I can do.

[IdahoNYer]

To the south of "The last Panzer Victory", our armies are in full retreat....

Hun 2nd Army pulls back a good 40 miles, leaving a few delaying units forward.

1st Pz Armee likewise pulls back, oriented on Tarnopol, but also maintaining contact with 12th Army to it's south - so it's already stretching a weak Panzer Armee. It's XXXXVI PzKps is pulled up behind the 2nd Hun Army to refit and backstop, just in case the Soviets have some surprise up their sleeves....

12th Army actually manages a limited counterattack rescuing the FG Pz Div, encircled for two weeks. Mud saved it - nice.
While defending along a river with some rough terrain, in level 3 fortified positions certainly helps, 12th Army is stretched to the breaking point, especially as 1st Pz Armee continues to pull back to the NW.

17th Army to the south falls back toward the Rumanian border, with a rear guard of Rumanians slowly following.

Bottom line is that it's going to get ugly in Rumania shortly - there's nothing I can do to prevent that. The goal here will be two fold - 1) maintain contact with 1st Pz Armee as it falls back toward Tarnopol, 2) delay Rumanian surrender as long as possible while being abe to 3) maintain the force once Rumania capitulates. #3 is going to be tough....

[randallw]

Maybe you can change the soft toggle to show experience and take a basic check to see which side has the advantage.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
As for the tempo issue - again, agree 100% as this is a major issue - for both sides. To me, a fairly simple fix, which would more reflect historical capabilities is massively restrict the amount of supply an HQ can carry with it as it moves. The "HQ" in the game are a abstraction of both the comannd and control HQs and the logistical tails in the respective Army, Front, Corps etc. While the Command Posts could be somewhat agile (again a bit too easy to move in the game at the higher echelon levels), the logistical supply aspect represent both the supply "dumps" and the transport to distribute the that supply. The problem is that when a real world supply "dump" needs to move, all those trucks used for distro are now tied up moving the supplies to a new location, and are not available to distro the supply. Not so in the game, no real loss of effectiveness when a HQ moves. Not to mention the time it would take to "pack up" a large, corps or army level supply dump.

What I think would work well is what is found in WiTP AE when units have to go into strategic mode to be loaded on ships. Same principle here. A HQ can either move tactically, keeping its C2 capability but losing most (I'd say 90% of its supplies) the moment it moves a hex, and could move its full movement allowance. It would still be able distro those 10% amount of supplies to units. Next turn, it would begin re-stocking its supplies and function normally if it did not move. Perhaps corps (Soviet army) HQs could carry a larger percentage. Instead of moving tactically, a player could put his HQ in strategic mode. In this mode its command radius would be reduced by 75% - pretty much non functional - but it could move with up to 75% of its supply carried - Railmode automatically puts a HQ in strategic mode. Corps and Russian Army HQs could go into/out of strat mode in the same turn, taking maybe 33% of APs to do so. German Army and Soviet Front HQs could change mode at a cost of 80% of their APs.

Something to this effect would definately force decisions for a player to either 1) continue attacking once he's past the effective range of supply at a much degraded level as supplies diminish, or 2) pause the attack and wait for HQs to pack up, and catch up. This would give a much better feel for what you describe Flaviusx, allowing Model to scratch together a thin line as the Soviets packed up thier HQs and moved them forward.

This would also fix the HQ's "muling" issue I've read about in the forums.

Obviously something like this would need some playtesting to get the numbers right, and might be beyond the scope of the current system.

Very interesting point, you are right of course: Moving higher level dumps should interfere with distribution. I haven't thought about that yet, indeed, but this would definitely sound like a reasonable rule. They probably could have implemented something quite similar to the air transfer checks, i.e. whether air groups had flown yet, or like subtracting air miles for base movements: supply distribution based not only on the distance to units and railheads, but also on the number of left-over MPs. Sound like a very simple rule. Since the timescale is 7 days, explicit stance changes like in AE probably make little sense.
I'd like to know how the new logistic model in WitW will look, apparently it is very different. I hope Joel reads your thoughts as well. Good point!

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
Agree 100% Flaviusx!! The panzers have kept a reasonable morale throughout the war - the infantry are mere shells of their former self as they have taken the brunt of the massed rifle corps attacks. The other issue is the forced experience loss as years go by regardless of actual casualties.

This probably is to reflect how the training and placement of new recruits etc. changed over the course of the war. Apparently a lot of the Soviet replacements in 41 and 42 had a rudimentary basic training at best before quickly rushed to the front, while later that situation improved while the Germans continuously shortened training intervals until the low point with the VG divisions was reached. I think it is okaish to have it that way, though explicit management of training pools like pilots in AE would be a neat addition in the future. They really shouldn't have called it "national moral", though.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 215; Jul 26, 1945.......Clear

Little activity across most of the front as the Soviets either are preparing, or, are catching up to the retreating Germans.

AGN, AGC, and Armee Group E are largely pretty quiet. Backed up by subsequent defense lines, good fortifcations and some of the best units left in the East, the positions look pretty good for now. The problem is the Soviets also figured this out, and really haven't tried to push hard anywhere north of the Pripet.

Which means, more than likely, he's shifting forces to easier pickings - south of the Pripet.

Which also means, I'll have to shift some of my better forces to counter this - weakening my core defenses.

6th SS Pz Armee - consisting really nothing more than than 3xSS Pz Divs and a weak infantry corps, will be the first to move in the next few weeks. Then other PzKps culminating with the 2nd Pz Armee (again, only really only a single, strong PzKps).

So we're really plugging holes in the ever crumbling dike.......

[IdahoNYer]

South of the Pripet, Armee Group North Ukraine prepares the best it can - along what fort lines remain, along whatever river we can utilize. Which isn't much.

6th Army and 4th Pz Armee aren't in bad shape position wise, but there forces remain depleted from the juggernaut Soviet thrust and their own counter thrust which limited the damage and allowed the front to be re-established.

Next in line is the Hun 2nd Army - largely intact, but with few AT weapons necessary to blunt a concentrated Soviet attack. It is back stopped by the 1st Pz Armee's XXXXVI PzKps and a few OKH infantry divisions railled in from AGC's rear areas.

I expect the next blow against the Hungarians, and will likely move the SS PZs there soon.

Also - Randallw - experience showing now...

[IdahoNYer]

Further south, surprisingly quiet for now. The gathering storm...

I had expected a push against both 1st Pz Armee and 12th Army - both fairly weak positions and stretched thin. Hasn't happened yet.

17th Army is now in fortified positions, and the Rumanians have also pulled back - now just waiting for the Soviets to catch up with the retreat...

Not going to really defend Rumania - once he pushes through the Rumanian defenses, Rumania will collapse and change sides. Front greatly expandes and 17th Army's right two corps will delay as best as possible through Rumania - I've got about 4 divisions in Rumania in and near Bucharest protecting rail lines, but I can't afford what really amounts to an army group to effectively defend down there.

I'm hoping the clock will run out before the Soviets can push well into Rumania - Yugoslavia to be a real threat to the Reich. We'll see...

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 217; Aug 9, 1945.......Clear

Screen shot before German moves.

North of the Pripet stays fairly quiet, just a few attacks held along fort lines.

South of the Pripet is another story. As anticipated, the Soviets ripped through the Hun 2nd Army despite reinforcement from 1st Pz Armee's XXXXVI PzKps. The Soviet tanks literally steamroll through the Hungarian positions, and the 25th Pz Div elects not to reinforce as part of a reserve behind the lines - instead it holds on the defence to blunt the steamroller and holds FOUR attacks preceeded by three separate air attacks. Nicely done! This really does take the momentum out of the Soviet blitz.

The Soviet attack is further held by the timely arrival of lead elements of Armee Group E, the 6th SS Pz Armee's I SS PzKps holding postions in a screen from Tarnopol north. This serves as a breakwater as the Hungarians collapse.

With the collapse of the Hungarians, I need something more effective here and I've decided to bring 9th Army down from AGN. Its been quiet there, and if the Soviets reach Poland via Tarnopol-Lvov, holding the Riga Line isn't going to matter much. This will bring 4xKorps of fairly fresh troops south.

[IdahoNYer]

Screen shot after German moves....

Counter attacks, spearheaded by I SS Pzkps and XXIV PzKps, throw back 3xTk Cps and isolate (at least temporarily) the lead Soviet Tank Army.

With 9th Army only partially arrived, I have to buy some time, and prevent the Soviets from heading due west or northwest. Rumania is going to be lost in any case, so I hope to show weakness (and it is weak!) to the south and south west - towards the Carpathian Mountains. Both the Hun 2nd Army and 1st Pz Army are fairly weak - I expected a blow to fall on 1st Pz weeks ago - and they can fall back toward the mountains.

But that will put a yawning gap between Armee Group North and South Ukraine - hence Armee Group E being established between them. It will consist of 9th Army (currently 1xPz, 12xIN) at fairly good strength, and 6th SS Pz Armee (only I SS PzKps currently, 3x SS Pz). I want to pull out 2nd Pz Armee (GD PzKps) from Armee Group Center, but right now, that's not practical...for now at least.

So in this area, I've blunted the Soviet drive for a very short time - he'll continue to push, right through the Hun and 1st Pz next turn....

[IdahoNYer]

At the end of the line is Rumania - a sure trouble spot just waiting to blow.

Note the Soviet tank corps resting just behind the lines.....

I'm just waiting for the blow to fall - I'm holding a good level 3 fort line on a river with some rough terrain. Its just too long, and the south of the Danube is all Rumanian, except one VG div. Not good. I've held some initial probing attacks, but once he's rested, he's going to easily penetrate the Rumanians, and likely 17th Army's positions as well.

I've also place about a dozen or so divisions along rail lines and two div in Bucharest to mitigate the disaster once Rumania switches sides. Not really sure what to expect once that happens. The core of this force is a mobility group of 2xPz Bdes and a FJ Div in western Rumania. All thes divisions, except the FJ Div are very weak, and really fit only for garrison operations.

Its the best I can do right now....

[juret]

u have ss divisions to garrision bucharest?

[IdahoNYer]

Juret -

No SS in Bucharest, only two infantry divisions to delay the inevitable. Maybe if it was Aug 44 instead of Aug 45, I'd have put the elite SS there to better modify the dice rolls. No point right now - I don't have the force to hold Rumania with or without the Rumanian "allies". Its a sideshow for the time remaining in our game. I need the SS to stem the drive toward Lvov and Warsaw. Those are the key areas.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 219; Aug 23, 1945......Clear

Absolutely quiet north of the Pripet. 9th Army successfully moved out of the line in AGN's area, and sent south, assembling SE of Lvov.

Here, due east of Lvov, the Soviets continue to pressure the defenses, but do not penetrate. 6th SS Pz Armee has recieved a second Korps, a weak infantry korps to bolster the SS Pz divs. For now, the I SS PzKps and 4th Pz Armee's XXIV PzKps seem to have been able to hold the main Soviet thrust near Tarnopol.

1st Pz Armee has pretty much extended north, taking over for most of the Hun 2nd Army's area - until the line pulls back toward 9th Army at least. The Soviets cleaned out the "rear guard" holding a salient jutting into Soviet lines. Now, they will likely hit 1st Pz Armee hard and there really isn't much to be done about it. 1st Pz is pretty weak, and I'm not sending much to help it. It will fall back to the south of 9th Army in the next few weeks, where it will benefit from the mountainous terrain.

[IdahoNYer]

The Soviets finally break through the Bessarabian Line and advance some 30 miles deep.

I kinda expected this for the last few turns - his armor must have been pretty fatigued not to have done it earlier. While my infantry were in lvl 3 forts behind good rivers, all of it was understrength with few reserves or Rumanian.

He's got about 10+ tank or mech corps deployed down here. Good. They'll have the chance to run wild here in a few across Rumania - and that should keep them occupied and not heading toward Lvov or Warsaw. I'm hoping they will be well into Rumania before Scar realizes I'm not really putting up much of a fight down there - too late to rail them back into the main fray.

17th Army will attempt to pull back and set up a weak defensive line along the Siret River to delay the Soviet advance west, and prevent them from turning north. The road to Bucharest will be be left fairly open.....

[juret]

He dont advance any in the north?

Not many turns left now, looks like germany can defend berlin for sure

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 220; Aug 30, 1945........Clear

Screen shots before German moves.

Nasty turn for the Reich! Rumania defects to the Soviet cause. Not unexpected, but I underestimated the effect. More on that later...

Here, north of the Pripet......quiet. Very quiet.

I think he's moved his armor south into Rumania and away from this entire area. In any case, the main line of resistance is pretty much fort level 3 now, and in most cases, behind rivers. The two fall back lines are at least level 2 and moving toward level 3 in places. Plus - as I fall back, the lines get shorter.

Frankly, I don't see much change here in the remaining time of the game. I've pulled both 9th Army and 6th SS Pz Army out of the front without any impact. I may pull further as needs arise....

[IdahoNYer]

Here is the screen shot showing the front south of the Pripet, and the debacle in Rumania.

Other than that, things aren't going to badly. No breakthroughs and a number of holds in the 4th and 6th SS Pz Armee areas. The elite panzer divisions still pack a nice punch defensively....

Now the situation in Rumania....

While I realized that once Rumania changed sides, parts of the Rumanian army would defect. I also knew I'd have to either garrison all the rail lines, or repair them. I thougth unit ZOCs would safeguard rails - it didn't always - left some Rumanian units on rail hexes which negated ZOCs. Also forgot to pull out the sizeable FLAK units in Ploesti.

All things considered, it could have been worse. The Soviets broke through the southern portion of 17th Army, cutting off three divisions. The rest of 17th Army should be able to pull back towards either Bucharest or the mountains. 12th Army will fall back west toward eastern Hungary, while maintaining contact with 1st Pz Armee. This is do-able.

Western Rumania is going to be a challenge - I've got a small force to "retake" it, and two RR repair units to begin converting the rail lines back to Axis control. I should have put a few more badly battered VG divisions - worthless in combat - to garrison the rail lines better.

We've only got a few turns left in the game. He's got a good dozen plus tank or mech corps moving in Rumania. He'll have some fun blitzing west against a light screen of 17th Army - probably one corps or so. Nothing's in Bulgaria either.

Fingers crossed that the clock will run out before he can be in Belgrade.....