OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

[PyleDriver]

Stuart, theres two things. By the time I move a PzC north from Kleist rain will fall, and I have to look at C&C. Hoth is loaded now. They become less effective if overloaded...42 is a rough game, sure I make it look easy. The transfer of trucks and the management of AP's is a tring task...Just wait, opp's you are...I'm still thinking of Kleist moving overland north....I still have things in mind...

[Neal_MLC]

If this is an ALPHA AAR, what are the PBEM AARs going to look like[:)][X(]

[ComradeP]

If the resistance at Moscow is too tough, you could try moving along the Oka up to Murom. The problem is that the terrain in the North makes a big advance towards Yaroslavl or Ivanovo from the West more or less impossible in winter/early spring it seems.

If you can get to Vladimir and the railroad clear hex Northwest of Vladimir bordering the hex with the special water hexside, it's basically over for Moscow.

If you switch all or at the least the vast majority of your Panzer and Motorised formations to the Eastern flank, you should be able to make some progress as the terrain is quite good. You could even advance to Saransk to more or less cut the front in two and create more space between the forces at Moscow and Soviet reserves in other parts of the Soviet Union. That huge steppe area to the East is just begging you to move some mobile formations there, formations that might be less useful in the wooded/swampy area around Moscow.

[wodin]

Ive read many AAR's and this one with everyone talking strategy has to be the most exciting one I've ever read. I keep reading peoples comments then going back to check the map to see how it would work and what they are seeing. PyleDriver I thankyou for a great AAR....better than many East Front books I've rad.

Superb.

[PyleDriver]

(DAR) Well the pockets were taken out in order. Over 130k Soviets taken. Still my railheads will take a week or so to get repaired across the Okh...Unlike the Rolling Stones, time is not on my side...This is good huh, I have more in store.... Damn I created this monster, I used to kick this AI around like a red headed step child...lol...

[ComradeP]

Many of those Soviet units/stacks seem to be really weak, so even when mud/winter comes, you should still be able to make some progress.

[Hard Sarge]

you don't want to attack in mud

really, you don't want to

your losses are going to be heavy

[ComradeP]

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

[PyleDriver]

Ron is correct, you just lick your wounds and wait for frost...This winter offence will be interresting to see...BTW I have no idea why my last post was so screwed up...

[Joel Billings]

In mud assuming low Soviet reserves you can hammer out a hex here or a hex there. But it's almost impossible to gain much more than that and forming pockets is what the Germans need to do. Otherwise it's pure attrition with a ratio of losses that is very bad for the Germans. Using non-random weather mud only lasts 3 weeks in the fall.

[critter]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

Got to agree with ComradeP. Seems stupid to waste 3 weeks.
But then again, maybe you want your troops to be fresh for the frost?

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

it goes deeper then that, you have 10,000 men, attacking, in a clear turn, you may get 8,000 of them into the battle, during mud, you still have 10,000 men, but you may only get 2,000 to show up

really, believe me, you will learn to either love or hate MUD

my current game, I got to the point, the only chance the Russian has, is the weather breaking, and, the 2nd week of Oct, the MUD hit (really hurt having to withdraw my SS Mot Div (3rd SS)

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: critter

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

Got to agree with ComradeP. Seems stupid to waste 3 weeks.
But then again, maybe you want your troops to be fresh for the frost?

well, again, I don't think the Idea is it is stupid, or that the Generals were Stupid, you just couldn't do it, when trucks don't move, when tanks don't move, you don't move

the Mud season was nasty, and even the Germans looked forward to the snow

[ComradeP]

I'll move the discussion to the Q&A thread.

[Zorch]

Jon, did you something with air recon to make all those Soviet units near Moscow visible? I assume that most of them were there before, but didn't show up because your units were too far away...

[SGHunt]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver
Well the pockets were taken out in order.

Blimey - that was impressive, especially the fact that you took out the stack that had been 'freed' by the Russians. Now there's some kind of hole in the front line - smash through to the Moskva and over with everything you've got. That is some schwerpunkt. And you have some 'spare' infantry divisions in the rear to close up the gaps a bit.

Are you sure you won't go through that 1=3 infantry division to the N and E of your main assault groups, and over the river that way? Maybe see how much progress the cyan Pz Armee to the East (I've forgotten its designation)can make first.

I have just spotted the strongest Sov Infantry Corps by far to date in this AAR - an attack value of 14!!! Hmmm, yes, perhaps some caution after all... On second thoughts - attackieren!

Finally, I had assumed that the 'spare' Kleist Pz Korps would simply move overland using the movement points shown. On friendly and open terrain they would be at the OKa this turn if they advance behind the infantry line, no? And I had him linked up with the Cyan Pz A, not Hoth. Inf Korps are then shuffled to Kleist to prevent overload. I know you are short of admin points, but everone is activated now, aren't they?

And sure, you make it look really easy...![:)]

[SGHunt]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
you could try moving along the Oka up to Murom

Pieter

Now that would be bold! Problem is there's no railway line to Murom except through Moscow...And if you could drive to Vladimir, you would be strong enough to just close up the gap much closer to Moscow. Less logistical problems and less front to defend.

I like the idea of the grand sweep, but I can't see it's at all feasible. You just love the thought of that open tank country to the West of Murom, don't you? [:'(]

S

[PyleDriver]

Stuart, Hoth hit that crossing with everything he could muster. I don't do peicemeal attacks when a show of force is needed. Got to hit them so hard they bleed...Its still all about time now...Hum...Oh, 2nd PzA is on the move, this is not over yet...Almost like a good movie...lol...Oh then theres Kleist...I really am getting into postion after the fall rain. First time I had to do this...I love this game so...

[janh]

I wonder whether you could ask someone of your dev team to take a screenshot of the russian dispositions and strength at this point and post it in a different thread. That would probably give deep insights into the reactions and planning qualities of the AI...

[ComradeP]

Now that would be bold! Problem is there's no railway line to Murom except through Moscow...And if you could drive to Vladimir, you would be strong enough to just close up the gap much closer to Moscow. Less logistical problems and less front to defend.

I like the idea of the grand sweep, but I can't see it's at all feasible. You just love the thought of that open tank country to the West of Murom, don't you?

Stuart,

I was surprised to see that there doesn't seem to be a rail bridge at Ryazan, I don't know how problematic that would be in terms of supplies (if supplies can move across the major river). There are rail lines West of Murom that shouldn't be too difficult to capture, but there's no link to the rest of the railroad network due to the lack of a bridge at Ryazan.

I wasn't thinking about a grand sweep per se, but more about creating a large encirclement instead of a limited one. Space can help when you're trying to encircle something.

Yes, a smaller encirclement would be less taxing on the logistics, but it's also easier for the Soviets to break through it. If the Soviets would penetrate an encirclement in the shape of a larger circle, you can make the circle smaller and keep the encirclement in tact.

As Jon seems to intend to starve Moscow first before attacking, placing as many hexes between a Soviet relief force and Moscow might be a good idea, which is also why an attack in the open steppes to the East might be a good way to distract the Soviets.

Attacking Vladimir isn't going to work unless there's the possibility of a link up with forces coming from the West, but Murom is a bit exposed and taking it would make sure the Soviets can't move forces in by train directly from the East, they'd have to take a detour to the North.