Defender of the Revolution: Q-Ball v Tarhunnas

[Q-Ball]

COMRADES!

I am taking up an AAR v. Tarhunnas, who is a good player and fine chap who has been around the forums.

Due to time constraints, I probably can't update as much as I would like, so glad to see Tarhunnas is keeping an AAR. I assume he showed you guys the turn 1 maps, which are pretty standard; giant pocket around Lvov, Riga gambit, blah blah.

German Moves:
It does not appear he committed extra panzers to the SOUTH. That is the most interesting part. Good job creating a Lvov pocket with only the Panzer Gp 1 guys. That also may mean a push in the Center, toward Moscow. Other than that, too early to tell what's up.

I noticed his Turn 1 AIRBASE attacks were not strong; only 1800 A/C destroyed on the ground.

Initial Orders:

Armaments are dear for the Soviets early-on, so here are some initial orders:

1. The only SUPPORT UNITS I am building for now are RR Brigades; 2 at least will be assigned to each Army. Grab your shovels Comrades and dig for the Revolution!
2. All Artillery Support units are set to 50% max TOE
3. So are all AT Bdes and NKVD units; also 50% max TOE

Turn 1 is the only turn you have massive Rail Capacity that isn't tied up on factories. I used this to Rail several Airbase, Motorized, and HQ units out of the Pripyet marshes and to safety, including the Mech Corps around Kovel; I railed them to East of Rovno.

I am disbanding all FORT ZONES at risk of attack at any point in the turn. No sense giving him cheap surrenders, when we can recycle all that gear and manpower in the pool.

Not sure if other do this, but I actually DISBANDED a couple routed Tank Divs in the swamps. Once they rally, I won't have the rail capacity to move them, and morale was in the 20s anyway. I figured, why not put all that stuff in the pool for another unit?

[Pawlock]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


I am disbanding all FORT ZONES at risk of attack at any point in the turn. No sense giving him cheap surrenders, when we can recycle all that gear and manpower in the pool.

I am in two minds of this option. If they are in the way of infantry, then I say yes go ahead. But if you know they are in the path of his tanks surely every extra blocker with ZOC and the need to attack knocks a few more mps off the tanks movement then IMO its a good tradeoff.

[Ketza]

Getting Kovel mech corp out was a nice bonus you usually dont get. Between those divisons there are thousands of trucks.

A trick I have been using as the Soviet is putting crappy and medium sized tank divisons in places like Odessa and Z town putting them in Static mode. You can reap a ton of APS that way as well as bump up your trucks and help your overall supply situation.

Good luck!

[Q-Ball]

You can close a big Lvov pocket without help from Pz Gp 2, it seems, but that will cost you the chance to close a pocket around Kovel. The Mech Corps there is a fairly good one, so those guys escape to live another day.

[Helpless]

Not sure if other do this, but I actually DISBANDED a couple routed Tank Divs in the swamps. Once they rally, I won't have the rail capacity to move them, and morale was in the 20s anyway. I figured, why not put all that stuff in the pool for another unit?

You probably know it, but one of the side effects of manual disbanding of soviet units in 1941 is that they won't come back as replacements. I.e. in this case no Tank Brigade will arrive instead. Routed tanks divisions when rallied have high chances to get disbanded automatically.

[TulliusDetritus]

Q-Ball, I'm pretty certain you will not forget it but just in case: send like a dozen of Cavalry Divisions to the North and Center. Very useful, you already know that [:)]

[randallw]

You can take tiny tank divisions and have them dig in way in the rear.  They'll also gain a little experience, making them a little readier to use after they convert to brigades ( unless they die ).

[Q-Ball]

COMRADES!

Pretty good turn for Tarhunnas; he made good progress in the North and Center, though in the South, I think using only the Pz Gp 1 guys is slowing him down a bit.

In the NORTH, he blew away my guys near Pskov. I have nobody up there, I am counting on him being low on gas to have to slow down. In my experience as the Germans, it's very hard to get very far on Turn 3 up there, because you outrun supply lines.

In the CENTER, he is approaching the landbridge, and even put a ZOC accross the Dnepr already! I closed the gap, but with no forts or anything, he might breach the line next turn. Not good.

In the SOUTH, I am in better shape. There are alot of units down there at start, plus all the guys that escaped from Kovel. The Lvov pocket is being reduced, though.

[Ketza]

I have had a few Axis players try to attack in the south without PZ help from AGC and it is indeed easy to make progress very hard for them.

[Q-Ball]

Turn 6

It's Turn 6, and Tarhunnas is doing a good job so far. I can see a pattern so far, I think.

My strategy so far has been a sort-of Robinsky; my priorities are savings the FACTORIES, and saving the RED ARMY. So far, my losses are just over 1 mil, which is pretty light for this stage of the war, but I have lost 8 Heavy Industry and 3 Armaments so far, at Mogilev and Leningrad. (I'm not counting the stuff at Minsk and the BA-20 factory in Leningrad, which doesn't matter much)

I have been building reserve armies, and using them to dig in front of important cities, to buy time to move industry. I did this in front of Z-Town and D-Town, which are just about evacuated. You can see an army in front of Bryansk. Another one is forming around Kharkov, and a Cavalry Army is forming around Stalino.

I end every turn with units bodied-up on the Panzer spearheads, but I am running from his infantry. This is because the infantry can hurt me, and also because I don't want to lose too much contact with the Panzers.

Northern/Northwest Front:
This area is a problem; I have lost contact with Leningrad already, turn 6, good progress for him. I have him slowed around Lake Ilmen, though, and hope to at least delay around the Volkhov. I think I have issues here though.

Center:
Also mucho issues; he formed a big pocket south of Smolensk, and that one was unbreakable. I have a reserve army coming up to the front, but after that, not a whole lot between there are Moscow.

The saving grace might be that Pz Gp 2 seems to be vectoring south a bit, and Pz Gp3 is short one Panzer Corps, so I don't think he is seriously trying for Moscow. Maybe.

South:
This has been good and bad.

The Good is that I hold the Dnepr pretty firmly, and I am pretty sure I can hold him off enough to evacuate industry, at least from an attack in this direction. My losses in this area to pockets have been acceptable, no huge ones after the Turn 1 pockets.

The BAD is that I am going to have to pull off the Dnepr soon anyway, to avoid a "Kiev Pocket". I probably have one more turn, and then it's time to get out of there. He will probably cross the Dnepr around Kiev completely unoppossed on turn 8.

[Mynok]

I tread gingerly here because I'm reading both AARs. Never would have thought to see you pull a Robinsky but maybe that's a viable option. We'll find out won't we. [:'(]

You've dug in enough on the back door to stop a gimme isolation, but yes, you do have problem up there. I'm curious why you've not reinforced more there? Feel other areas are more of danger?

[Q-Ball]

Turn 7

I am actually now working on Turn 8, but I took a couple shots of Turn 7.

The idea wasn't a Robinsky, rather fighting the Germans on better terms. Better terms meaning at the end of their logistical tether, and where I can leverage some trenches and a few more units.

I actually disagree with the approach that Tullius D proposed in Estonia, for example, against a good opponent, and Tarhunnas is a good opponent. Shoving poor Rifle units forward in open terrain doesn't do much, IMO; a good opponent will hasty attack those, and motor around the rest, on turn 2-3 when the Panzers have plenty of fuel. Turn 5-8, they don't have plenty of fuel, and if you can confront them with a stronger checkerboard or whatever in trenches, it will seriously slow him down. That's the theory anyway.

I have kept the principal of putting a unit on every Panzer since turn 3. I am pulling back from the Infantry, but only where there are no Panzers.

My priorities are saving industry, and not getting units surrounded. So far, I am not acheiving all those objectives. My losses have been light, but I am losing factories. Through turn 8:

6 Heavy Industry and 8 Armaments in Leningrad Area (Ouch)
2 Heavy Industry in Zaporozhe or Z-Town as I call it
3 Arm and 2 HI in Mogilev

That's the damage so far......not great, but at least I don't have anything else under threat at the moment.

I am really trying NOT to get Motorized Units, Cav, and Arborne surrounded. They are all useful later on, the Mot units I just don't want to lose trucks.

I am finding myself short of units, for lack of rail capacity to get units forward. That's another problem.

Anyway, more on turn 8 in a moment, when Tarhunnas is going to take Leningrad, but here were my turn 7 screens:

[hfarrish]

I think we are working relatively similar strategies (units on panzers, retreat to better fighting positions) - I have never quite understood some of the commentary you refer to on forward defenses. If given the choice of putting my units in the clear or light woods or behind a river or in swamps 40 miles back, to me it seems like a no brainer (depending on circs, of course, but usually). I guess time will tell - we are both up against skilled opponents (Klydon for me) and so the merits or flaws of a fallback defense should be pretty well there for all to see.

[Q-Ball]

Turn 8

COMRADES!

I have made a critical mistake around Leningrad; I failed to adequately protect our Comrades fighting on the Neva line, and as a result the city of Lenin shall be lost. I will explain to Comrade Stalin that it was an honest mistake; I'm sure he'll understand.

North:

Yep, I messed-up. In hindsight, I shouldn't have attempted to defend Kolpino and Pushkin. I figured the units would retreat into, and cover, the Leningrad city hex, but instead they routed like the traitorous cowards they are. We are rounding up their virtual families to send via rail to several off-map Gulags as punishment.

I kept Kolpino and Pushkin to restrict the breadth of the German advance, and take away room to maneuver in there. I didn't factor the fact that 18th Army Infantry has alot of blasting power at this stage, it's probably the best infantry in the Wehrmacht. Against a good opponent who can spot that weakness and take advantage of it, that's fatal. That's Tarhunnas.

I had hoped to slug it out along the Volkhov line for a few turns, but now, I'm pretty sure the whole northern thing will fall apart quickly. Pz Gp 3 is rounding Lake Ilmen, so the Volkhov line is about to flanked anyway.

Tarhunnas will need Pz Gp 4 next turn to clean-up Leningrad, but starting Turn 10, they will be free for another mission. I doubt he will send them into the woods and swamps East of the Volkhov; I think he'll us them to push me back from the V-L salient, or send them to Moscow.

Hats off to Tarhunnas, Leningrad is his.

Center:

Things are slightly better in the Center; Panzers made very limited progress around Vyazma, smashing a few units but encircling noone. German units are all showing "RED" fuel, so I know gas is a problem here. This is a good thing, because I am still short on units, though we have enough to put 3-deep against the Panzer spearheads.

Around Bryansk, Pz Gp 2 advanced a little, but also bogged down in the hedgehog of forts I had built around Bryansk. The industry in Bryansk is long-gone, as well as the factories at Kaluga.

South:

Here Tarhunnas scored a minor victory as well, though it's not all roses for him.

He managed to get adjacent to Z-Town, trapping 2 Heavy Industry there. Everything else from Z-Town, D-Town, Poltava, is all moved. Nice job, though.

Take a look at the screen, though, and he has some problems there. He finally crossed the Dnepr way back at Kiev, mostly because I am pulling off it. He has one hex crossed near Cherkassy. Everywhere else he is still on the West Bank, putting AGS behind in my estimation.

Next turn, he has to leave a stack next to Z-Town. The Panzers are in a position where they are unlikely to get much fuel, and will probably have to expend MPs just to blast the units I left on the West Bank. He will probably get a bridgehead this turn, but probably just a small one, and probably will need Infantry on Deliberate attack to do it.

I have reserve armies digging around Stalino and Kharkov, so I am pretty sure I can save all the industry in these key places.

[76mm]

Good AAR, too bad about losing Lgrad, but don't feel bad, almost everybody does it...

Will be following your campaign with interest!

[Flaviusx]

It's very tough to hold on to Leningrad nowadays against a competent German player who makes a point of taking the place. Especially if you don't try to delay with a forward defense.

[Pawlock]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Turn 8

COMRADES!

I have made a critical mistake around Leningrad; I failed to adequately protect our Comrades fighting on the Neva line, and as a result the city of Lenin shall be lost. I will explain to Comrade Stalin that it was an honest mistake; I'm sure he'll understand.

North:

Yep, I messed-up. In hindsight, I shouldn't have attempted to defend Kolpino and Pushkin. I figured the units would retreat into, and cover, the Leningrad city hex, but instead they routed like the traitorous cowards they are. We are rounding up their virtual families to send via rail to several off-map Gulags as punishment.

I kept Kolpino and Pushkin to restrict the breadth of the German advance, and take away room to maneuver in there. I didn't factor the fact that 18th Army Infantry has alot of blasting power at this stage, it's probably the best infantry in the Wehrmacht. Against a good opponent who can spot that weakness and take advantage of it, that's fatal. That's Tarhunnas.

I had hoped to slug it out along the Volkhov line for a few turns, but now, I'm pretty sure the whole northern thing will fall apart quickly. Pz Gp 3 is rounding Lake Ilmen, so the Volkhov line is about to flanked anyway.

Tarhunnas will need Pz Gp 4 next turn to clean-up Leningrad, but starting Turn 10, they will be free for another mission. I doubt he will send them into the woods and swamps East of the Volkhov; I think he'll us them to push me back from the V-L salient, or send them to Moscow.

Hats off to Tarhunnas, Leningrad is his.

In one of my games I made 2 critical mistakes regarding Lenningrad, 1st I checkerboarded from Pskov to Lenningrad but no unit in Lenningrad. This allowed my opponent to push straight through to outskirts Lenningrad pretty quickly.

Second mistake was I did not protect the port on Lenningrads side. Lost Lenningrad on turn 8. But to my mind, this can be a blessing insomuch you have a lot more troops to deploy to other sectors. Bad news is you have nother Panzer corps waiting to be deployed elsewhere.

[gids]

if you loose leningrad ,the fins join the fun in the winter....they take up a piece from the frontline,germans send more units elsewhere ..but idd its almost impossible to keep leningrad against an fanatic panzerpush
i lost it aswell against tarhunnas,his HQ buildups are legendary hehe
also word of advice ,ALWAYS garisson your cities in the back,with at least 2 units even if theyre a long way away from the front,i noticed a tendency from german players to do suicidal panzer rushes into the back to get the industry,even if they loose those units

[hfarrish]

I am in the process of losing Leningrad, probably on Turn 11 (the defeat can be seen, I'm sure, in Klydon's AAR). Would have held it a couple more turns except for guarding the Svir with depleted units, which routed when the Finns got there and enabled him to capture the far ports. Actually considered it a relief as it freed up forces for elsewhere.

Are you planning on abandoning the North for all practical purposes or continuing a fighting retreat from Leningrad?

[Q-Ball]

Turn 9

Thanks for comments everyone. It seems most competent German players are taking Leningrad (I did in my game vs. Von Beanie), and Tarhunnas is better than competent. Goes with the territory I guess.

North:
With Leningrad lost, there isn't much to fight for up there now. I am not pulling back, but making a fighting withdrawl. I'm not sending any reinforcements up there, as there is zippo industry to defend, and not even much population. Still, I don't want to give-up too much ground, because I want to stay as close to Leningrad as possible, thinking VERY long term.

One silver lining to Leningrad: I'm only going to lose 2 divisions there. The rest were routed out of Leningrad.

In the South, Velikye Luki fell, but I am still holding a salient into the German lines. I would really like to keep that for the Blizzard; the more salients, the better.

Center:
The Germans are still puttering around Vyazma, but I sense an HQ buildup. I have my troops digging there, we're ready, hopefully.

2 Divisions were surrounded at Bryansk; those are the first surrounded in awhile actually.

South:
I sense another buildup, because the Panzers did nothing last turn. He pushed across the Dnepr in 2 places, but only 2 hexes on the west bank STILL, other than the ones that crossed around Kiev as I am pulling off the river there.