Can we nerf this at some point next patch?

[mmarquo]

The point is it happened in center and in more games then just mine.

I was told by another player the crap this guy was pulling and only way to prove it was by playing him.

You can drop 3 units or 5 units in a single turn and cut all 5 rail lines.

Its clearly and exploit that is a HUGE game changer and reading poeple defend it is really a hoot.

Marquo I know you play German side from time to time.

Turn 8 you get a breakthrough that could be a huge pocket its almost closed with 80 units in it. You also get one in the south. You send in turn. Get it back and because of 3 para drops Tula south is cut off, no supplies for 3 turns. the SHC player simply walks out of trap and laughs at you for your complete lack of skills.

You would be here posting it so fast it would not be funny.

Get out of the mud and stop defending stuff thats 100% turning poeple off from the game.

Who wants to play a game when someone can pull this crap at will?

Zero skill needed.

You could make Jamiam look like a newbie doing stuff like this.

Pelton

For whatever reason you has chosen not to answer this question on several occasions. The airdrop was not gamey, and the para unit was most probably based in Odessa which you chose to simply ignore. I posted a link which corroborates that the Soviets did launch a such a brigade level para drop in 1941 to function as partisans. When one puts all of one's eggs in one basket, then one has to accept the consequence of one's actions. You say it was the center, but that is a half truth as the target hex was really not too far from Odessa which you chose to ignore. Just man up, learn from your mistake and move on.

You clearly have never played the Soviet side; a Soviet player could never airdrop 5 brigades in one turn.

"Get out of the mud and stop defending stuff thats 100% turning poeple off from the game.

Please elaborate; what have I done but document that the Soviets actually did launch a successful para-partisan air drop in 1941? FWIW, a little gem like this is actually a magnet for people to play; it shows that the devs paid alot of attention to historical capabilities which are modeled in the game. Further, it gives hope that overly aggressive Axis players who ignore their logistics and flanks, can be made to pay dearly for their exploits. This is actually turn on, not a turn off.

For the record, do you ever play with random weather? If not, why not?

Enjoy the game [:)]

[Seminole]

You say it was the center, but that is a half truth as the target hex was really not too far from Odessa which you chose to ignore.

There was an earlier drop SW of Vilnius on turn 9. Not sure where it was airbased from: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3009329&mpage=1&key=&#3026644

For the record, do you ever play with random weather?

I haven't seen an AAR from him where he does. He usually writes of having X turns to accomplish Y.

[carlkay58]

If I recall correctly, there were four airdrops (or at least attempted airdrops) in September, 1941 of brigades by the Soviets. Each of them were of the type mentioned earlier where the Soviet paratroopers were to supplement or create partisan groups. Since they were being prepped for this, they were trained and meant to be airdropped over 300 miles (30 hexes) in the rear of the front lines. Two of the brigades were meant for the Pripet marshes, one brigade into the Kaunus area, and one brigade near the Rovno area. In each case only about 2-300 men were actually airdropped and most were never heard of again.

The major airdrops were 10 airborne brigades dropped behind enemy lines between Smolensk and Veli Luki (SP?) in the first few weeks of December 1941. These were VERY successful drops that set up the counter attack by the Soviet armies in front of Moscow. Two full cavalry corps were used to join up with them and were promptly isolated by German counter attacks. If you look at the weird and contorted lines in the Rzhev - Smolensk - Veli Luki area you will see where the major drops and fighting occured - it was the cause of this bulge and confusion.

I have been practicing using the airborne to duplicate this feat in the game and it is pretty difficult to do - but possible if you are careful with the Soviet airborne and transports. Historically they caught the Axis by surprise and it sounds like that can still happen in the game.

[mmarquo]

quote:

You say it was the center, but that is a half truth as the target hex was really not too far from Odessa which you chose to ignore.

There was an earlier drop SW of Vilnius on turn 9. Not sure where it was airbased from: tm.asp?m=3009329&mpage=1&key=?

quote:

For the record, do you ever play with random weather?

I haven't seen an AAR from him where he does. He usually writes of having X turns to accomplish Y.

Pelton ignores his flanks; that air drop probably came from an air base on the unmoltested island in the Gulf of Riga.

[randallw]

The airborne brigades need at least 50 experience to be drop capable.
NW Front, Western Front, SW Front, and Southern Front each have one corps, of 3 brigades each, making 12 brigades total.
About half have experience at 35 or below when the war begins, and the best of the 12 are in the mid 40's.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If I recall correctly, there were four airdrops (or at least attempted airdrops) in September, 1941 of brigades by the Soviets. Each of them were of the type mentioned earlier where the Soviet paratroopers were to supplement or create partisan groups. Since they were being prepped for this, they were trained and meant to be airdropped over 300 miles (30 hexes) in the rear of the front lines. Two of the brigades were meant for the Pripet marshes, one brigade into the Kaunus area, and one brigade near the Rovno area. In each case only about 2-300 men were actually airdropped and most were never heard of again.

What would be nice is if this were coded such that during the Axis logistics phase, as Partisan attacks are resolved, any Soviet airborne brigade > 10 hexes from a supplied Soviet unit is treated as a full strength Partisan battalion, and can then resolve rail attacks, per normal rules. After the unit conducts its attacks, it is then disbanded with its elements being distributed among existing nearby partisan cadres and battalions.

This will allow this particular historical use of the paratroops, as well as the possibility for autorepair of the rails. As it is now, having a fully supplied Airborne brigade sitting on a rough terrain hex will likely require a deliberate attack by a German combat division to budge it. This is something that is not likely to happen in fewer than two turns, if the front lines are sufficiently advanced.

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If I recall correctly, there were four airdrops (or at least attempted airdrops) in September, 1941 of brigades by the Soviets. Each of them were of the type mentioned earlier where the Soviet paratroopers were to supplement or create partisan groups. Since they were being prepped for this, they were trained and meant to be airdropped over 300 miles (30 hexes) in the rear of the front lines. Two of the brigades were meant for the Pripet marshes, one brigade into the Kaunus area, and one brigade near the Rovno area. In each case only about 2-300 men were actually airdropped and most were never heard of again.

The major airdrops were 10 airborne brigades dropped behind enemy lines between Smolensk and Veli Luki (SP?) in the first few weeks of December 1941. These were VERY successful drops that set up the counter attack by the Soviet armies in front of Moscow. Two full cavalry corps were used to join up with them and were promptly isolated by German counter attacks. If you look at the weird and contorted lines in the Rzhev - Smolensk - Veli Luki area you will see where the major drops and fighting occured - it was the cause of this bulge and confusion.

I have been practicing using the airborne to duplicate this feat in the game and it is pretty difficult to do - but possible if you are careful with the Soviet airborne and transports. Historically they caught the Axis by surprise and it sounds like that can still happen in the game.

Piffle; don't confuse us with historical facts. [:)] The first 4 airdrops you alluded to are of the variety that some are currently belly aching about; the kind that the Soviets "were not able to do, could not have done, blah, blah blah." The very kind of partisan activity meant to wreck havoc with the RR logistical net.

The later ones at Smolensk and Kanev were more operational in nature; one near Smolensk caused a world of hurt for the hapless Axis, the other was a disaster.

Thanks for the intel,

Marquo

[mmarquo]

What would be nice is if this were coded such that during the Axis logistics phase, as Partisan attacks are resolved, any Soviet airborne brigade > 10 hexes from a supplied Soviet unit is treated as a full strength Partisan battalion, and can then resolve rail attacks, per normal rules. After the unit conducts its attacks, it is then disbanded with its elements being distributed among existing nearby partisan cadres and battalions.

This will allow this particular historical use of the paratroops, as well as the possibility for autorepair of the rails. As it is now, having a fully supplied Airborne brigade sitting on a rough terrain hex will likely require a deliberate attack by a German combat division to budge it. This is something that is not likely to happen in fewer than two turns, if the front lines are sufficiently advanced.

Great idea; when dropped behind lines they are OOS the next move and very vulnerable.

[Seminole]

As it is now, having a fully supplied Airborne brigade sitting on a rough terrain hex will likely require a deliberate attack by a German combat division to budge it.

I think the 'instant partisan' idea has merit (and should definitely still be coupled with the random LZ element).

But more to your point, they lose a lot of strength in the lift if moved by a single air group. I'd be surprised if the brigade in this example is even in a ready state, and it is also isolated. I bet a strong wind will blow it away. It's the time lost getting a combat unit there, and then the follow up of rail repair once it is eliminated.

I tried something similar in my game, but closer to the front lines (about 10 hexes back of the line), in AGC where my opponent doesn't even have a solid screen of regiments holding the line. My hope was to disrupt supply and breakthrough with cavalry to the rescue, but the subsequent turn he pulled back (thwarting a clean breakthrough) and the turn after that destroyed the airborne.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

As it is now, having a fully supplied Airborne brigade sitting on a rough terrain hex will likely require a deliberate attack by a German combat division to budge it.

But more to your point, they lose a lot of strength in the lift if moved by a single air group. I'd be surprised if the brigade in this example is even in a ready state, and it is also isolated. I bet a strong wind will blow it away. It's the time lost getting a combat unit there, and then the follow up of rail repair once it is eliminated.

The airborne unit won't be isolated until one full turn after the drop, as the logistics phase check for it, occurs after the following player turn. It may lose some strength in the lift, but if placed properly will likely be well able to repulse any local Sec Regiments/Brigades that might be able to reach it during the player turn that it is in full supply.

[Zebedee]

I've been chuckling reading this.

Nicely played Savanniperkele. The karma is strong in this thread.

[Aurelian]

I'm reluctant to drop paras. I've been massing them, but have nowhere near enough transports to drop them all.

That, and the fact that they can become Guards w/o fighting.

But against someone who games the supply rules, I'd rethink that.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM]

In other words, interdiction, IMO, is only working for half the cases that it should be.

But is that something easily fixed?

Unfortunately, it doesn't look to be an easy fix. With the current data structures set around unit-based recon, rather than hex-based recon values, saved games wouldn't be compatible, without a lot of specific code to make the transition. This type of design decision needs to be made at the beginning of development, and not afterwards. Hopefully, future War in the (fill in the blank) titles will incorporate hex-based recon, rather than unit-based.

I thought so. Well, hopefully the future War in ........ will correct it.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

AFV,

The point is that there were in fact well organized Soviet airborne forces in Southern Russia, and they were trained and able to particiapte in combined arms operations. That the Soviets use of paras in 2 large scale operational manuvers met with mixed/dismal results does not mean that other outcomes were not possible. But in the case of Pelton's game, it is a single raiding brigade being dropped into a hex not so far from Odessa. Is this plausible, the use of paras as "partisans?" Well yes, and here is the source:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/geronimo/index.html

"Other missions carried out by Red Army paratroopers were generally on a small scale. Small parachute sections are believed to be attached to armies for espionage and sabotage purposes. Small groups of troopers have been used in cooperative roles with partisan groups behind enemy lines, and one entire brigade was dropped near Smolensk, in 1941, behind German lines. Many of the personnel in this drop were dressed in civilian clothing, and were expected to operate as Partisans."

This vindicates the use of para brigades as partisans to disrupt RR?

Marquo [:)]

The drop near Smolensk wasn't an entire brigade. What they actually managed to lift in several night drops was IIRC a reinforced battalion or so. In game terms it also had zero supply, they only had lift enough for the soldiers themself.

Wait until the end of the week and I'll dig up the references.

In general I think some people here are seriously underestimating the amount of logistical prep work needed, and the time it took to lift several thousand people several hundred miles...plus the supplies.

[AFV]

MechFO
You simply don't understand that the 1941 SU, in game terms, had the capability of a well trained, well supplied, and well motivated 1989 Spetznaz team. Once you allow for the only slightly ahistorical SU ability to morph parts of it into an entirely different era, you will understand.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: AFV

MechFO
You simply don't understand that the 1941 SU, in game terms, had the capability of a well trained, well supplied, and well motivated 1989 Spetznaz team. Once you allow for the only slightly ahistorical SU ability to morph parts of it into an entirely different era, you will understand.

Are you trying to cement a position as the most useless contributor in this thread?
Take a deep breath and quit ranting about things no one is supporting or proposing.
Please.

[AFV]

Seminole, I'm sorry you left your sense of humor at home, take a pill.
 
Either they were well equipped, supplied, supported, and motivated and could pull off precision drops in '41, or they couldn't.
I contend they could not. You even agree to that, at least to a degree, so I guess you are useless also. So sorry.
 
But sorry, others here *are* supporting that, basically claiming because in '41 the SU had pushed a few soldiers out of planes that meant they could drop anywhere (in range of a plane), anytime, effectively, precisely, and consistantly.
 
Now, you take a deep breathe, maybe even smile. Or not, your choice.

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: AFV

Either they were well equipped, supplied, supported, and motivated and could pull off precision drops in '41, or they couldn't.

Not sure how that matters. Two drunk Mongolian shepherds on a meths binge could starve out Pelton's Ostheer in almost every campaign he's ever posted on the forums. And, likewise, do significant damage to the 1941 campaigns of most other German players.

That's the problem. Not the historic capabilities of the Soviets performing an airlift. Not the historic capabilities during any specific week after such an airdrop. But that any interdiction of the rail line stops that infinite supply and that effect is multiplied for German players who rely too heavily on 'optimised' (I believe that's the polite way of phrasing it) railroad building in 1941.

Only thing that's new is that someone's outcheesed Pelton with the game mechanics for a change and provoked this new plea to 'history'. Even the paradrop 'exploit' isn't new for a GG game; in fact, at least this is a brigade rather than just a squad.

Relative capabilities mean diddly squat when the problem is one of game mechanics. Could the Soviets put some men on a plane and dump them into swamps (not even with parachutes) with a sufficient survival rate for them to appear as a counter on map? Yup. Anything beyond that is the logistics mechanic - infinite supplies or not a bean. Can remove some options from the Soviet commander to prevent some elements of the clearly exploitative use possible but the fundamental issue remains. And it cuts both ways eventually.

[AFV]

"Not sure how that matters. "
As I see it, that is actually all that matters. I really do not care about Pelton's game, his failures, successes, who's winning, losing, etc (no offense to Pelton or his opponent).

The only thing I care about is that in the GC, WITE will let the Soviets, in 1941, drop an airborne brigade at least 18 hexes (perhaps longer, we don't know for sure), with precision, accurately, every time, with a combat unit ready for action.

Yes, they had planes, men, petrol (and parachutes). You need more than that to insert a combat ready unit into enemy territory with precision.

[Timmeh]

Yes, they had planes, men, petrol (and parachutes). You need more than that to insert a combat ready unit into enemy territory with precision

 
pilot?
runway?
kosher meals?  what is it? inquiring minds want to know.