My thoughts are that there are times when the you are fighting for nothing, which is bad practice for the Allies. Italy until you get to the top of the toe and the heel is one of them. The Germans are going to cede the ground when you invade unless they don't mind sacrificing units early, and you aren't going to make your invasions prep any faster. You sure aren't going to fight your way north through 100 miles of mountains before your mainland invasions are ready, so why kill your troops for it? You might get a chance to drop a hammer on a key German formation, but moving one of those out of the hills is an extensive and pre-planned operation - and unless you have the ability to keep pressure on, the Germans will just rotate those in to refit behind a narrow front defense.
I'm certainly not intending any criticism as I don't have the faintest idea of how to play the game. I'm just noting that in early September the allies invaded at Salerno and other than the toe (which I think was a very good move) there has been nothing going on in the mainland.
No offense taken! It’s more of an explanation of why. As for timing, as an oddity of the German POV AAR is that you’re really only seeing the first half of a turn. So when T11 posts, you’ll see what the allies did on T10 and so forth.
And as for not knowing how to play - don’t worry, we’re in the same boat.
No offense taken! It’s more of an explanation of why. As for timing, as an oddity of the German POV AAR is that you’re really only seeing the first half of a turn. So when T11 posts, you’ll see what the allies did on T10 and so forth.
And as for not knowing how to play - don’t worry, we’re in the same boat.
Things finally happen in S Italy. Since there is not too much interdiction, should be able to manage a retreat without extra losses. That also reduces the risk of another naval landing for some turns.
Allies isolate Porto Vecchio but suffer a lot of losses trying to bomb the defenders after I left a fighter formation there with a 0-hex AS mission.
Reich, 8 AAF hits Hamburg again (primarily the U-Boats).
BC attacks Wilhelmshaven (U-Boats) and Dusseldorf (where it took fairly heavy losses). It also ran 21 recon missions over Cologne, I mean there is recon and there is stalking ...
Looking at their losses, surprised to see the Stirling I is still allowed out. Clearly most of 8 AAF was having the week off.
VP chart remains depressing reading.
Interesting to compare that to our last game. I had 3 more city VP (guess reflecting earlier captures in Sicily and the islands), GR has +11 bombing VP (his disciplined focus on single targets and mostly sticking to VP and the western parts of Germany is paying off), US losses are +3, CW losses are -22 (I do tend to overuse the CW formations in the early game), U-Boats are -10 (again GR is sticking to the stopping them repair, I tend to take the chance of some repairs and then return to knock them out again).
Bright spot for me is I am +11 on the partisan score – but of course that is less units actually in Italy (I assume).
So overall GR is +31 compared to the earlier game. Rather worrying given the likely dynamics up to mid-1944.
Anyway, back to the action. After a bit of thinking, decide there is no point engaging with the new landings, so committed L:2 off Corsica, even managed to catch a few Allied planes where I heavily outnumbered them.
Removed 2 of the PzrGr regiments. I really don't like the consequences of leaving a hex next to a port unoccupied so that units retreat in that direction. Since this is clearly what is planned see no point losing the entire division.
At least in the south, the front has moved. Depends how much armour the allies have but that screen should be able to retreat over the next couple of turns.
Just a general observation, can't complain as I make use of it too, but its become far too easy to ensure an Italian surrender right at the start of August. Seems to only need 2-3 allied divisions on the mainland and there is no way can the German player match that.
I think its pretty historical that Italy was gone by the point that this game starts. The Duce was deposed soon afterwards and everyone in charge in Rome (not being fanatic nutcases like Hitler) was desperate to get out of the war and see what they could save. One condition set by Italy for the armistice was an invasion of the mainland by at least a few divisions of allied forces and that seems to be the tipping point here.
I think its pretty historical that Italy was gone by the point that this game starts. The Duce was deposed soon afterwards and everyone in charge in Rome (not being fanatic nutcases like Hitler) was desperate to get out of the war and see what they could save. One condition set by Italy for the armistice was an invasion of the mainland by at least a few divisions of allied forces and that seems to be the tipping point here.
I agree, but its too easy (as I say I do it so its a general comment) to generate a small landing on the mainland by T3. That in turn guarentees an Italian bail out at the start of August.
Its not going to happen, given the game design cycle, but I think it'd be better to have a more nuanced model. Something like in August, all Italian ground formations shed morale - in effect they might briefly fight but it'll be a rout, in September add in the surrender rules.
The politics behind the real surrender were complex and one reason that Italy became a republic post war was the view that the King abandoned the army to its fate (especially in Yugoslavia/Greece where Italian troops were slaughtered both by the Germans and the partisans) as he didn't warn them he was going to surrender. If he had, it would have made it a lot easier for Italian formations to defect in an organised way and (again esp in Yugoslavia) be able to negotiate with Tito's forces with something to offer (all those heavy weapons etc).
Southern Italy, allies join their landings to the forces in Calabria. I have the mobility I need to keep out of range of their infantry.
Seems a PzrGr regiment opted to run up a hillside that was left vacant rather than evacuate out of a functioning port. I'll be honest and say I find this rather gamey, it sometimes happens by accident or need but its profoundly unrealistic.
8 AAF bombed fuel around Hamburg and ran an AS that caused me some losses. Main effort was fuel and tank production at Hannover. BC back to Essen (by day this time) and continue their stalking of Cologne – there must be something really interesting going on there. Strategic airforce raided Ploesti.
VP chart gets no better
In S Italy a quick count suggests 5 CW armoured divisions, 11 CW infantry divisions and 3 US infantry divisions. Clearly the rest of the US units are in the UK.
Anyway, happy to disengage, I want to strip the allied armour of its mobility and that means being nowhere near their depots (it will be some time before they acquire much rail capacity).
Great read again. Congrats for the dedication you put into this.
And hats off to GR, who is nowhere near the "not so good player" he thinks he is. His approach is always thoughtful, and, at times, brillant.
That being said, why don't you garrison the ports such as Bari or Taranto ?
Playing the Allies, I always found it time and resource consuming to reduce these strongholds. And time is of the essence in 1943, as it is basically a race to Rome before the Germans (and winter) can lock down the Gustav Line + control any landing initiatives (ala Anzio).
And playing the Germans, the resource investment is not so high (couple of regiments + few Flak units)
I can't afford to lose too much till some of the garrison requirements are reduced.
I've never really got to terms with the axis side in WiTW, but my guess is he's not going to expend too much effort on the Napoli line and will rely on his next set of landings. So my feeling is he can have the ports south of Naples and a few turns delay (& losses for me) is not really going to make much difference.
and yes, he is good at being very focussed on the key things. His bombing strategy is unusual but very effective (I think too many people just use the Q-Ball/LS model) and he's more prepared to rely on movement than combat to shift the German lines.
Thanks for the response regarding Italy. I'm always a big fan of some element of randomness in games. It helps avoid developing perfect plans! And, the AAR is very interesting as always.
Southern Italy, much as expected, the marked hexes seem to be the limit of the Allied rail net, but it'll take them a while to generate much rail capacity.
Elsewhere the allies hit my air bases.
Over the Reich, 8 AAF did a small raid at Kiel, bulk of its effort aimed at Hannover and Magdeburg.
BF carries on day bombing in the Ruhr.
VP screen remains depressing viewing.
Beyond that, not much happened, trying to make sure the next round of withdrawals won't leave me too badly exposed and that units in S Italy are able to pull back in some sort of order when needed.
Guess its time to start checking the weather. At best/worst next week is rain over northern Europe (and yes, I know I can't start expecting worse/better weather than I got away with).
In Italy, allied units move up to the defensive line, till I start to have to cope with withdrawals, I doubt that much will happen.
Looks like rail interdiction and airbase bombing, plus a lot of recon around Rome.
In the Reich, 8AAF carries on bombing U-boats around Hamburg-Bremen and fuel production near Hannover. BC hit Kassel (Tigers?). Limited commitment to the Ruhr.
Since I placed all the day fighters in the Ruhr, the results were rather pointless. There are times when I really feel I do not understand how the air war operates and defensive AS missions seems to be one of them.
VP chart, remains depressing reading.
Hit one over-inquisitive British armoured division. Again its useful to see what the GS commitment is like.
Some culling out of spare units from the garrison commands as I've just lost one Pzr division.
That is the Adriatic section of my front line broken – not a surprise with that much bombing and naval support.
Reich – 8 AAF carries on making sure the U-boats never repair. Massive raid around Hannover but not too successful. BC back to night bombing in the Ruhr
Start of turn air losses
And VP situation
Gambled on bombing one of the allied airbases on Corsica, knocked out 43 planes, as far as I can tell a mix of Mosquitos, P-39s and a few recon types.
Other than that, one failed attempt to hit what looked to be an isolated British brigade and a lot of unit shuffling.
An Allied Interlude: Well, @#%, They Still Have More Mountains.
As we approach the Gustav/Napoli line, the heady days of sweeping gains are likely coming to a close.
And with it comes a close the last part of Italy that works on a defined timeline. The phase we just played has a pretty defined tempo. The Italians will surrender. The outer islands will play out. The allies will land and force a withdrawal to the Gustav. And all of this will probably happen before the end of September.
There’s a weird paradox: there isn’t a lot of time pressure on the WA yet, which gives you a lot of operational freedom in your decisions, but the reason there isn’t time pressure is because all of your big decisions are only going to be different in the particulars. There are ways to change the tempo – land near Rome without the islands, leave a desperate rear guard in foothills as the Germans – but they are rarely truly feasible.
As such, I figured it would be better to concentrate on opening up my future options than focus too hard on obtaining what I knew would probably be given to me. This came in the form of trying to destroy or degrade elite German units and the LW. Better to fight them over empty seas and clear plains than in front of a landing or in the mountains when the clock starts to tick.
The Enemy
Having got a look at what Loki brought down and some recon flights, I composed the following German OOB for Italy:
4x PzG Div & Schmalz (5x when including the anticipated rebuild of the 15th, who would presumably be deployed near Rome to release other units)
3x Pz Div
1x FJ Div
1x Sturm BDE
An unknown number of infantry. Possibly another 1-2x FJs.
A strategic reserve worth at least 2 garrison VPs; call it 20 CV.
~1100x Bombers/Torpedo/Patrol Aircraft between LF 2 & 3, with ~200 replacements anticipated
~250x Fighters
~100 TAC-Bs
I figured he would commit the FJs, 2x PZ Div, 4 x PzG Div (over-estimated) to a well ordered delaying action and acting as a threat-in-being, with 1x PZ Div and the rebuilt 15th securing Rome and acting as an operational reserve. Presumably all the other stuff he wasn’t showing me was digging in the Gustav/Napoli. I strongly suspected he would launch a defense of Corsica with 90th PzG and the Sturm Bde, (right) with all 4 ports occupied. (Wrong)
I didn’t know where or how he would commit his bombers, but figured he would need some for the Corsican defense and that the Gulf of Taranto would be less contested due to range.
The Plan
I wanted to remove the equivalent of two elite divisions from operation, and reduce his effective bomber fleet to 700. While the Germans can refit or rebuild divisions, they have difficulty doing it near the front and they never quite come back to their glory. The bombers can also be rebuilt, but never quite as strong, never quite as good, and not all that fast. My port and rail campaign has been lackluster, so Loki can probably do it all a bit easier. Which is worrying cause he’s quite good at that.
So operation SlamDancer was born in my head. It got a name because that seemed very Allied.
Dancer was the projected island fight where the Free French, 82nd AB, and a couple others would be responsible for securing Corsica. The ground side was meant to be a formality after an initial entry, with airpower from Sardinia bombing the ports into inoperability and cutting the sea lanes. Malta air command, reinforced heavily with fighters, was to set to the work of killing German bombers when they came out to save the island and it’s units.
Slam was the Italian breakout. The plan was to go heavy in the east rather than waste troops fighting for hills in the west; turning the line there would force an abandonment of the hills, and more importantly, offer opportunities to weaken German mobile formations in the open. To ensure link up in a timely manner, the 29th PzG needed to be removed. The plan was simple – leave a British division out to attract a concentrated attack from the 29th and friends, and then use the entire allied arsenal to smash the pre-disrupted division flat. Couldn’t possibly shove it out of the way if it stayed in placed, and removing a division in the opening would make sure Loki stretched thin along the front.
Encircling it seemed unlikely, but stripping it of most of it’s combat power seemed entirely possible. After landing, look for opportunities to work over exposed mobile regiments and draw German tanks into waiting airpower. The landings themselves got sufficient air cover to survive, but it would have been a bad day had Loki gone all in with the LW.
The air war would continue to be a VP hunt, but with an increasing focus on body blows now that combat with the elites was going to be under way. I don’t think even intensely focused bombing can fully break the panzer replacements, but it wouldn’t hurt to take the shine off. Since the enemy had stopped defending the western portions of Germany, I decided on a policy of sending the occasional fighter sweep out further in lieu of escorts when I was hitting near targets.
The Outcome
Dancer was a qualified success. The islands fell in short order with minimal losses, but the opportunity to destroy the 90th entire slipped through my fingers when I balked at sending another TF to sit on the evacuation routes. I also could not repair Calvi with a TF (well, I could, but lesson learned on TFs hanging out in interdiction zones) until degrading LF 3’s attempts to suppress it – for weeks, the only troops on the island were French mountaineers and Italian allies because the English speakers were trapped on boats in port. This is what caused the frontal assault on Ajaccio and later Porto, which had the happy effect of cashiering two regiments of elite units. In the air, the fighters did their good work, but mostly on LF 3. LF 2 remains in Italy with ~600 bombers to hand, or it did before they all shipped out to avoid the airfield raids. LF3 has - something, but lost several hundred. The air war was very back and forth; I’m glad the fight happened here and not over the southern landings.
Slam worked rather well, but only time will tell if it was worth the losses. 29th committed to its attack, sending a British infantry division reeling into refit, and then the counter-attacks literally destroyed every AFV heavier than an armored car in the unit (or so my commanders tell me). However, even the heavily depleted division managed to stop exploitation by the Polish armor who were supposed to finish the job. So rather than having it trapped in between the on-rushing forces and the landing, Loki managed to withdraw it. Still, that’s another full issue of the heavy PzG kit; between that, the 15th, the Corsican losses, I hope a dent is being made. Chasing those hopes, armor elements took the opportunity to work 3rd PzG over on the pursuit. One of their regiments was routed in the push off the beaches, and another battered rather heavily both on landing and near the Ofanto. Each time the HG and/or schmaltz raced through air attacks as reserves and paid for it accordingly. The question hanging in the air is “did that matter, or will a couple turns on refit fix everything?”
Also, it wasn’t all roses. I attempted to cleverly only interdict the hexes I wanted by laying “railway” interdiction while coming off the beaches – but it turns out the blown axis rails didn’t trigger interdiction attacks, allowing a reasonably pain free withdrawal in that regard. Likewise, the combined cost of the three weeks of real action in S. Italy was about 7,000 CW troops. Not prohibitive operationally, but not doing the VP chart any favors – and it’s only worth it if those PzGs were actually affected.
The strategic air war confirmed that Loki had largely abandoned West Germany, prompting a transition to daylight bombing by BC. I had a few weeks where the night fighters tore them to pieces; by contrast, daylight losses were light. I figured I would either reap the benefits of increased bomb effects, or Loki would send his fighters back out to be shot at. The latter is a real consideration as the effect of him ceding the west and increasing parts of the Hamburg corridor is that the LW isn’t dying in nearly the numbers I would like; some day I’m going to look up and see a sky full of Germans when it is least helpful at this rate.
he's more prepared to rely on movement than combat to shift the German lines.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
Ok, quite a lot happened, so lets try and put it into some order. My final move of last turn was to deploy 1 SS Pzr to hold Naples (this happened after the last image in the previous post). At least that delayed its fall by one turn.
Allies pushed up the east coast taking fairly heavy losses. All things being equal, they have not made much of a breakout from the landing but I suspect/fear a paratroop operation to threaten a wider encirclement.
One good thing is they haven't really taken control of the seas.
In the circumstances, I didn't lose too many planes so can commit again next turn. At one level I'll run the LB into the ground over this mission, till that landing is linked up its a near final chance to hammer the TF as much as anything else.
In the Reich, BC went for the Ruhr and Bremen at night. For once my NF defense seemed to work – I'm convinced this is more or less random luck.
8 AAF mostly tried a raid on Berlin. Took relatively heavy losses from the local flak but more importantly went into the middle of the AS box I set up.
End result was a rare good week for the Luftwaffe.
Not that it makes any difference.
This time managed to isolate the landings.
Followed up by some attacks on the more exposed allied units, they were already having ammunition shortages (the soft factor) so this should limit them for next turn (I hope).
Having hit most of the non-armoured formations, I doubt their tanks will be able to risk any attempt to break out (unless there is a lot more off-shore – and it didn't show up during the naval bombing).
To the south, suspect I am going to lose on FJ regiment but everything else should be able to retreat.
Losses might even put a small (and meaningless) dent into their VP score.
Italy. Allies only managed a partial sea connection to their landings. Carry on attacking up the Adriatic coast. Weather has changed to rain so that might help me quite a lot.
Reich, 8 AAF on fuel and U-Boats around Hamburg. Bomber Command back to day over the Ruhr.
VP chart is the usual grim reading.
Looks like light rain almost everywhere next turn.
Managed to isolate the landings again. So decide its worth attacking the advanced units, even if simply for the losses.
Other than that, trying to pull back under some control, see what happens in terms of heavy rains in November.
Have a few infantry units being removed next turn which will need some care in balancing the garrison requirements.
Actually I'd forgotten about the infantry withdrawals so rather frustratingly spent admin pts on mobilising them.
I'm just noting that in early September the allies invaded at Salerno and other than the toe (which I think was a very good move) there has been nothing going on in the mainland.
