How to stop the Axis subs?

[ncc1701e]

I am really bad at this. I am investing in ASW for bombers and light fleet. But the Axis subs are able to go all around Africa to destroy all my convoys. They don't have a limited range?

Any tips please.

[Platoonist]

You probably can't do much offensive sub hunting until you get to ASW level 2. But then the evasion penalty is always key. Try to hit the subs first with a lousy ASW unit like an air unit, if possible. That reduces the evasion. Then go for the kill with your more advanced sub hunters, the light fleets and the heavy bombers, or whatever you can bring (CAGs are also a good choice). Remember, damaged subs will be back to bug you a lot sooner than a fresh new build that replaces a destroyed sub. Always go for the kill when you can!

Apparently, subs don't need supply, so they can range about the oceans forever. But they do eventually run out of torpedoes. Sooner or later, they must return home or sit uselessly out at sea. (I recall one Japanese sub fleet that sat off the coast of Argentina for the rest of the war after expending all its torps...I think General Perón must have taken them in.) Try to be in a position to ambush them if they do return.

Another tactic that Allied players often miss is not using the full movement abilities of heavy and tac bombers. After bombing targets in Europe use the remaining range points of any surviving bombers to move them into sea areas around Britain where they can op-fire on passing subs during the Axis move. This is in essence like a second move. If the bomber speed is up to four or five you can build up a screen against U-boats, after bombing western France, or the Low Countries.

[Lebatron]

That was good advice. Anyway, in the OP's game we are playing I am doing the basic U-boat campaign. What you fail to notice that I got really frustrated over was that 4 times the US got a WR bump in this last turn alone. It's been bad. The US hit x2 factory in Spring 1941! So the extra production come early will go a long way to replacing those transports.

Another piece of advice that you have to account for when you play with advanced supply on is that in sea zones without connection to land with supply you got to place 1 supply on that transport. I attacked that transport and Destroyer combo you had and scored a hit on your DD too. That DD was unsupplied lowering its evasion!

Learning how to play the naval game takes some practice. When I play the Allies against you in the future take note of what I do, or what any other AWD vet would do. You got to expect some transport loss. On the plus side it drives the WR up.

[ncc1701e]

All right but in the Indian Ocean, I am surprised there is no range limitation regarding of the technology level.

And regarding our game, yes I have decided to not protect my convoys to increase US WR. Looks like it worked.

[Lebatron]

I think you misunderstand the range limitation on my subs. We are using advanced supply, so my torpedoes are limited to a load of 3 right now. The are using 1 each time they fire so no error is going on. The ones I sent around the horn of Africa were at 2 torps left I believe. They would have run out, but I was able to resupply them in the Red Sea. Since I took Trans-Jordan behind your force in Egypt, I was able to land a few supplies there, then move my empty subs into the Red Sea to be adjacent to the supply to get a new full load of 3 torpedoes.

On another note, while the Suez Canal is closed to me my subs are at risk of total destruction if they got hit. In this case a range limitation applies. This may be what you are confusing. I'm so far from a port with a factory that a single hit turns into a double hit. That's the downside of going around the horn of Africa. But if I take the Suez Canal then a damaged sub can trace to Europe via that shortcut then my subs are safer to hunt in the Indian Ocean. The Japanese subs can suffer the same fate if they go too far and venture into the Atlantic. The Indian Ocean is fine but around the horn no. It's been so long that I checked on the rule, but if I recall correctly a check is made to see if a ship is within 1.5 times its max range to limp back to a port.

[ncc1701e]

So what you are saying is that I should try to put my Light Fleets directly in the Indian Ocean to hit your subs and not in South Atlantic where they can go back to factories?

Another point, when I see the starting subs technology of the Germans. The Germans subs are already at 3 (2/6) evasion. Whereas the WA light fleets are only at 1 (1/10) anti-sub value. The road will be long to sink any Germans subs.

Germans subs will be at 4 evasion in no time and at 4 evasion as stated in the manual: "once the German Submarine Fleets attain an Evasion attribute of four they are almost uncatchable."

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Allies Tech.JPG (136.56 KiB) Viewed 521 times

[Lebatron]

Yup try and hit them while they are in the Indian Ocean before the Axis have the Suez. Problem is sometimes you may not have the supply to move them DD's around to chase the subs. It's a skill thing. Anticipate the need beforehand. It takes experience to handle the Allies efforts vs the U-boats. I am easily running circles around you because our skill levels aren't comparable. I have 20 years' experience playing this game, and I have played many games vs very skilled guys. So, it may seem like the game is broken to you. Kind of like a beginner chess player would be pulling their hair out vs a master. This game is very Chess like in that regard. It's a game of maneuver first and foremost like Chess.

When the Allies DD's and HB's are at ASW 3 then the Allies can start to get a handle on the U-boat menace. As I suggested in my Deluxe guide (found in the manuals folder) the Western Allies (WA) should always be teching up the DD's every turn. Do so until they hit 3. 4 is optional on the DD's. It all depends on how the Battle of the Atlantic looks. The German player may have given that up by then, or he could have like 10+ U-boats and always keeping their EV higher than your ASW. Then you adapt.

[ncc1701e]

It takes experience to handle the Allies efforts vs the U-boats. I am easily running circles around you because our skill levels aren't comparable. I have 20 years' experience playing this game, and I have played many games vs very skilled guys. So, it may seem like the game is broken to you. Kind of like a beginner chess player would be pulling their hair out vs a master. This game is very Chess like in that regard. It's a game of maneuver first and foremost like Chess.

Oh I don't say the game is broken. I am trying to understand why I am just a poor player to a veteran like you. I just hope this is not boring to you playing me.

[Lebatron]

No not boring at all. I just hope you are learning from this. From your perspective it may seem like there are no counters to what I am doing, but when we reverse the roles you can learn from some of my examples.

[ncc1701e]

Another tactic that Allied players often miss is not using the full movement abilities of heavy and tac bombers. After bombing targets in Europe use the remaining range points of any surviving bombers to move them into sea areas around Britain where they can op-fire on passing subs during the Axis move. This is in essence like a second move. If the bomber speed is up to four or five you can build up a screen against U-boats, after bombing western France, or the Low Countries.

Thanks I did use this tactic in my current Deluxe game. Looks like a good move indeed.

[ncc1701e]

You probably can't do much offensive sub hunting until you get to ASW level 2. But then the evasion penalty is always key. Try to hit the subs first with a lousy ASW unit like an air unit, if possible. That reduces the evasion. Then go for the kill with your more advanced sub hunters, the light fleets and the heavy bombers, or whatever you can bring (CAGs are also a good choice). Remember, damaged subs will be back to bug you a lot sooner than a fresh new build that replaces a destroyed sub. Always go for the kill when you can!

Sorry but sub warfare is the key of this game. If Germany is cutting the link between England and East Africa, this is game over. And I would like to understand this evasion penalty.

I have a CAG with anti-sub value of 1 and a DD with anti-value of 1 also. So I attack first with the CAG and then I attack with the DD. Where in the combat result I can see this evasion penalty?

I still miss this part. And I am losing because my communications are broken.

Thanks

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004.JPG (101.45 KiB) Viewed 469 times

[Lebatron]

He was just referring to the "already fired at" penalty. While a unit is fresh it will have full defense. Once fired at it will be reduced by -1EV. You can see this all throughout combat reports.

Example. Sub has a defense of 12. Arrived at by 4EV x 3Durabilty. The first shot at it only scores a 10 so it misses the 12 defense. The next shot is also a 10 but this time it hits because now the subs defense is 9. Arrived at by 3EV x 3Dura.

So as said above you can use a poor ASW unit to strike first. Consider this the scouting run if you will. A fighter if it can reach is a good choice to attack with first. Then the follow up attacks can be done with the units that actually have a chance to score a hit.

[Lebatron]

Your pics show the sub at 9 defense in first pic and then at 6 defense in the second. It's not to hard to hit a 6 once you are beyond ASW 1. Are you expecting to sink U-boats at ASW 1? Of course not.

It appears to me that you may assume you have to clear the sea zones of U-boats near the UK in order for the UK to receive their resources from abroad. Not so. Your transports can coexist in the sea zones with the U-boats and the UK will still stay connected to the resource network. It's pretty hard for Germany to cut off the UK. If you are running low on transports pull them from South America. You won't collect the resources from there that turn but at least you linked the UK into the network. That takes priority.

[ncc1701e]

Thank you, I get it now. With ASW 1, you are getting one attack dice. The dice roll is giving a 4. 4-2+1-3 is giving 0 so no chance to hit anything.

One more question, if my DD is at ASW 2, it will have two attack dices. How is it working? The total of the two attack dices is added minus the combat modifiers to calculate the attack factor?

[ncc1701e]

Answering my question, attack dices are added just like land combat. Perfect. Training is complete. I need practice now.

[Lebatron]

Yes, once you reach ASW 2 there is a chance on a good roll to hit a sub. Once at 3 hitting becomes more common. Then at 4 you almost always get a hit if a scouting attack is made first to lower the subs EV. At this point the battle of the Atlantic is pretty much finished for Germany unless they stay in the race to keep their U-boats EV tech above the Allies ASW by 2 levels. And that is a decision for the German player to make on a game by game basis.