The logistic System is a gigantic mess

[diamondspider]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

The easy fix is to resolve all of the player supply before building the private roads... solved.

Solves nothing. That just shifts the problem to the next turn, unless the player is micromanaging his supply in close enough detail to spot the issue before the next turn resolution.

I disagree only because the overlays allow this to be spotted so easily. My complaint was about the system jacking my supplies with my only way around it being reloading my last game, putting a road to that oil field and putting the correct stop sign in beforehand, which is a sucky work around.

[Che12]

I honestly don't like this logistic system. No matter what you do, building a good economy, having plenty of ressources, a lot of truck stations all over the area, railstations at important nodes and roads in nearly every hex but my troops at the front are not getting their supplies every turn. Why is the system not auto-assigning the trucks and rails to the right places? If i look in the overview it looks like the supplies are not even transported over all the roads but only over one and sometimes over a free hex next to a road. No truck driver would do this. If there is a traffic stop he would simply take the next possible route.

PLEASE @Vic: Build in a more logical mode. Call it casual or whatever but make it understandable. Because i really do not understand why there should be a disruption in the logistics every 3 turns that brings the whole system to a collapse while everything is green and there are all ressources (fuel, ammunition, food, water, ...) available.

[diamondspider]

My guess on the main problem is it isn't clear how much a given SHQ is able to push a given good to the front. If such an overlay was available, I think it would help a lot. You can set the % of how the SHQ will allocate its supply, but that problem trying to be solved with supplying a front vs. moving other stuff around is entangling two different issues together in a way that is necessarily difficult to decipher.. and not in a fun puzzle way, but in a way that tends to be frustrating. Other than that, the system seems pretty good to me and I enjoy it. I don't think it is that hard to fix with a new overlay that surfaces this aspect.

[Dampfnudel]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy ..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

[diamondspider]

There are decisions with traffic signs and it works pretty well. I don't find it tedious. I just keep the overlay up and adjust it a bit. It isn't great, but it is another aspect to the game that has a new feel to it.

[Kamelpov]

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy ..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here

[siRkid]

So I have the supplies, the road,the truck stations and a supply depot within three hexes of my army and the majority of my units are not getting supply. Meanwhile the city I have surrounded does not seam to have a problem.

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy ..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.

[MarbleToad]

I haven't had any of these issues. Having played and enjoyed games like Factorio, Im no stranger to resolving thoughput issues. Maybe that has helped. I dont mean to sound harsh, but I wouldnt like the game to get easier to accomodate those who are having trouble with it. If some of us arent having issues with it, like the system, are challenged by it, and are still marching our ways to victory, there isnt anything fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better, but overhauling would be a shame. Id be willing to play a pbem game against anyone who is having trouble. Maybe having a human player exploit your weaknesses and also demonstrating through example how to make logistics work might be helpful. Necessity is the mother of invention. Id say the same about the slavers/independent raiders everyone is complaining about as well.

[MarbleToad]

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy ..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here

Exactly. If you dont have unused logistics, you cant strategic move accross your empire to counter a surprise attack or some other unforseen maneuver. In a multiplayer game, a player who has a perfectly efficient logistics system will have spent less resources, which is an advantage. But the player who has tons of redundancy and overlap will have a strategic advantage. Both equally interesting decisions. Right now, the current system lets you micromanage between these two different strategies as the landscape of the game evolves. Tight on resources or overextended? Plop down some traffic signs. Diplomatic dealings going south with all of your neighbors? Better have some redundancy. If you are always strapped for logistics, then you are likely overextending yourself.

[MarbleToad]

If you are having logistic issues you cant resolve, a more helpful approach would be to post pics on the forum and invite friendly forum posters to help solve your puzzle.

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel





Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here

Exactly. If you dont have unused logistics, you cant strategic move accross your empire to counter a surprise attack or some other unforseen maneuver. In a multiplayer game, a player who has a perfectly efficient logistics system will have spent less resources, which is an advantage. But the player who has tons of redundancy and overlap will have a strategic advantage. Both equally interesting decisions. Right now, the current system lets you micromanage between these two different strategies as the landscape of the game evolves. Tight on resources or overextended? Plop down some traffic signs. Diplomatic dealings going south with all of your neighbors? Better have some redundancy. If you are always strapped for logistics, then you are likely overextending yourself.

Yes I tried to convey this as well but you guys put it out more eloquently. Free roads built by the AI also basically are free industrial points. If they bug the eye, you can remove them already in the beta patch.

[GodwinW]

Generally you'd want to place Supply Stations closer to cities and definitely not near a front line that may move or be at the tail end of a road.

Think like this: a Supply Station dumps a few jerrycans of fuel into every truck passing by with which they can reach way further (it's a helpful analogy I think: zero penalty of them getting it early).

If you put it at the end, just a few trucks who have managed to squeeze out their engines and managed to drive very economically will get the jerrycans of fuel (even if truck AP is used up if you have a lot of LIS the road will carry it forward reducing it hex by hex).

But we'd need a picture to help more.

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

I haven't had any of these issues. Having played and enjoyed games like Factorio, Im no stranger to resolving thoughput issues. Maybe that has helped. I dont mean to sound harsh, but I wouldnt like the game to get easier to accomodate those who are having trouble with it. If some of us arent having issues with it, like the system, are challenged by it, and are still marching our ways to victory, there isnt anything fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better, but overhauling would be a shame. Id be willing to play a pbem game against anyone who is having trouble. Maybe having a human player exploit your weaknesses and also demonstrating through example how to make logistics work might be helpful. Necessity is the mother of invention. Id say the same about the slavers/independent raiders everyone is complaining about as well.

I do agree with this, although it may come across as a tad elitist.
Especially agree since you also say "Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better", and being able to delete roads is definitely good and relocating the 'Clear All Signs' button would be good too. And probably there are a few other minor things? Maybe.

[Malevolence]

I like the system, but there is definitely room to improve the reporting and adding units and buildings to better manage logistics.

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ. I would be willing to sacrifice the efficiency with a two turn delivery in exchange for a warehouse full-fillment feature. It also offers everyone a nice targets to disrupt or destroy.

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ. I would be willing to sacrifice the efficiency with a two turn delivery in exchange for a warehouse full-fillment feature. It also offers everyone a nice targets to disrupt or destroy.

I absolutely agree with this. I was a bit shocked that troops cannot for example use nearby food structures as a priority but that the food circulates via the SHQ, which might be thousands and thousands of km's away.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy ..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.

The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.

[MarbleToad]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel





Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.

The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.

Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

ORIGINAL: Sieppo




For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.

The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.

Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.

And in your example you're still clicking more than 16 times in the current implementation: to close off the 50+ other dead-end roads that would otherwise prevent LPs from even arriving at this 16 branch road.

There will always be more road branches that don't need thousands of logistic points than you can ever conjure up branches that do.

[MarbleToad]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

ORIGINAL: Nemo84




The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.

Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.

And in your example you're still clicking more than 16 times in the current implementation: to close off the 50+ other dead-end roads that would otherwise prevent LPs from even arriving at this 16 branch road.

There will always be more road branches that don't need thousands of logistic points than you can ever conjure up branches that do.

Ok. Question: In a pull based system, as you see it, do all units receive resources if you have enough resources, trucks, and a clear route? Or are you simply suggesting an easier to use system for mapping out logistic lines?

Let me elaborate to make sure Im asking the questions correctly, so I can better understand exactly what you are looking for. In the first scenario, there is no micromanaging at all. Just build enough stuff. Presto. Done. In the second scenario, things are functionally the same, but rather then placing traffic signs, you'd be able to trace a line on the board following a given path and allocating the number of trucks to send down that route, or even have the functionality of clicking on a unit and have the game come up with a route that brings the minimum, which you could then tweak.

I see the latter as additional tools improving the quality of life of the current LIS but still improving upon the current system.

The former is an overhaul that changes an aspect of the game and demotes logistics to a more is better system.

Curious on your take.