My thoughts... and fears.

[Texashawk]

I've been playing this game off and on for about 2 weeks, after reading the manual and watching a few videos. I wanted to give a perspective from a game designer (me) and someone who enjoys games like Distant Worlds and the WITE/W/P series, as well as some fears, and advice.

Imagine viewing a gorgeous engine running through a window that is caked with vegetable oil. You can hear all the parts, in all their glory, humming and whirring, but you can't quite see the engine working. You know there's something special there, but when you try to wipe the window to get a glimpse of a game system or a function, you end up smearing more oil around. To really see the whole engine in all its glory, you have to scrub and scrub and scrub.

For me, it was worth the scrubbing. I have purchased Matrix games for almost 15 years (my first game was Uncommon Valor!) and I have by this time a full idea of what to expect from a Matrix game in terms of accessibility/manual/developer consistency, and obviously I've been a loyal customer for quite a while. As a designer, the game loop is (when it works properly) highly addicting; the beauty of it is that you can as the player design your loop the way you want to get from where you are (small civ on a hostile planet surrounded by death) to where you want to go (king of said hostile planet). Research, combat, leadership, production, economy, cards(!), diplomacy, spying... it's all here.

Somewhere.

And that's the thing. This game could be literally the best 4X ever made. When you finally understand the relationships between the factions, leaders, Profiles, and Strategems, it's really bordering on genius. You can over time literally shape the direction of your empire, simply by the leaders you find and develop, the factions you support, the feats you attain, and the choices you make, without doing anything else militarily or scientifically. It's ripe for role-playing, and the game happens quickly enough that you can see your empire shifting gears realistically and dramatically should you wish to change your governing style. I am to the point where I enjoy the hard decisions about what to build, how to lay my LN, what armies to raise, what to develop, and how to play Strategems (and who should play them, and how to develop them), and it is great fun to me!

But to get to that point! Here is my concern.

It probably took me about 15 hours to get to this point, counting reading the manual, watching a few videos, playing about 3 or 4 learning games, and a LOT of trial and error. The LN system was confusing to the point of almost causing me to give up the game (and I play a LOT of wargames, both computer and board, so I am quite familiar with various supply systems in games), the OOB system was highly frustrating (what do you mean I can't build an army of motorcycles? I just researched them, didn't I?) the science system was RNG at its worst, I was frequently given situations where the only good options were far beyond my ability to pay for them, my leadership seemed to have the worst self-control or restraint because they kept pissing off the citizenry every other turn doing bonehead public things, I couldn't figure out for the life of me why a building that was supposed to take 3 turns after turn 10 was still supposed to take me 1.4 more (4/10's of a turn? Whaaaa?), and the cherry on top for me was when I was trying to play a Stratagem and the game literally told me in red letters 'You can't play that Strategem right now, and we can't tell you why'.

WTH???

That's when I walked away for a few days. But much like the excellent Tom Chick review/agonizing mental window said, I kept wanting to come back. I wanted to see that engine. I wanted to wipe away the smear on the glass and see what everyone else who had put in the time and scrubbed that glass over and over was seeing. I wanted to be in the club. And finally, I persevered. I am by no means an expert, but I can certainly play and know more or less why things are happening and what my strategic and tactical options are.

But I'm a 'Matrix guy' and I sort of knew what I was in for. When this game goes on Steam? I fear it will be a bloodbath of bad reviews and refunds because Steam players tend not to 'put in the work' needed for games like this. Distant Worlds could have suffered this fate but it went through 4 expansions and years of polishing, and it had a very loyal fan base. Ditto the WIT series, which helped to get it over the rough patches when rolling out to a new audience, as well as having a legendary developer's name on the tin. SE has neither of these built-in advantages.

So I say this to Vic and Matrix. Before you release on Steam, I deeply, strongly recommend some sort of guided tutorial game added to the game. I know that would be a decent amount of extra effort at this point and I know that some of the systems are either being revised or locked down, but I can't recommend enough some sort of game-embedded guide. This could be a seminal game for the genre, and I would hate for what may well be Vic's masterwork in his game development career to crash on the jagged rocks of impatience, ignorance, and frustration. I (and many others) chose to wipe that glass to see the vision beyond.

Many, many others, will not, and not only that, they will tell others how their elbow hurt from trying.

Just my $0.02.

-Steve

[Shards]

Thanks for the feedback Steve, and glad that you came back

[scottrossi]

When you got the "You can't play that Strategem right now, and we can't tell you why", were you trying to play the stratagem before clicking on a leader or zone? that comes up for me sometimes if i'm going back and forth between stratagems and the map or leader lists and haven't reselected it. i've always been able to get it to work instantly once i reclick. just wanted to put that out there!

[Kriegsspieler]

I do not have the cred of having been a designer, but I have played wargames -- beginning with Tactics II, if you can believe that -- and strategy games since before there were computers to play them on.

What Texashawk says here is completely on target. This is a deep, sophisticated and challenging game that is hampered by its unintuitive interface and the lack of transparency in many of its outcomes. An expanded and updated set of video tutorials would certainly help, as would a "strategy guide" that gave you basic "how-to" information on how to do things like handle logistics, build out your economy, recruit leaders, etc. I think you need to have both, because while video tutorials are clearly the medium of choice for those who no longer seem to read anything, they're difficult to consult for specific information.

[actrade]

ORIGINAL: Texashawk


So I say this to Vic and Matrix. Before you release on Steam, I deeply, strongly recommend some sort of guided tutorial game added to the game. I know that would be a decent amount of extra effort at this point and I know that some of the systems are either being revised or locked down, but I can't recommend enough some sort of game-embedded guide. This could be a seminal game for the genre, and I would hate for what may well be Vic's masterwork in his game development career to crash on the jagged rocks of impatience, ignorance, and frustration. I (and many others) chose to wipe that glass to see the vision beyond.

Many, many others, will not, and not only that, they will tell others how their elbow hurt from trying.

Just my $0.02.

-Steve

100% agree. Great game but I have NEVER spent as much time as I have on this one reading manuals, DasTactic's complete guide, forums, etc to even feel partially adept. I fear the Steam crowd will tear the game to pieces if a detailed tutorial (and not 8-10 hours of which like Das) isn't readily available.

[Texashawk]

ORIGINAL: scottrossi

When you got the "You can't play that Strategem right now, and we can't tell you why", were you trying to play the stratagem before clicking on a leader or zone? that comes up for me sometimes if i'm going back and forth between stratagems and the map or leader lists and haven't reselected it. i've always been able to get it to work instantly once i reclick. just wanted to put that out there!

Thanks! I went back and checked out what you said, and it appears you are correct! I suspected it was something like that to begin with, but at that moment, after all else I had been through in trying to learn the game, it felt like I was being mocked, honestly. Vic, if you're listening, I'm sure this is the result of a message at the end of a case or switch statement checking strategem validity - I would recommend changing it to 'You can't play that Strategem right now, most likely due to an invalid target being selected.' That should cover most bases and not entice someone else to ragequit in a moment of sheer frustration.

-Steve

[willgamer]

Totally agree with the OP.

DC:Barbarossa had Cameron Harris as the developer alongside Vic.

The differences in both the game and the manual are very apparent with respect to Shadow Empire.

I wonder if Vic could bring Cameron, or someone like him, to address the substantial and important issues identified above.

No one can do it all; the game is brilliant, but another set of eyes could improve it even further.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

*snip*

Just my $0.02.

-Steve

Brilliant. Very much agree.

You Magnificent Bastard!



loved OP's metaphor

[CelestialSlayer]

Agreed it was one of those games were you had to work hard and study to git gud. Won my first game last night after three unsuccessful attempts. Great game, but needs to be more user friendly in various ways.

[Pymous]

Agree with OP too, good points!
I really think this is future classic. The foundations are solids, it can be further enhanced in many directions. Long live to Vic!

[SCSNV]

I will say that I don't buy into the assertion that the game won't do well on Steam because of how complicated it is or the necessity to 'put in the work'. People don't buy things that they're not interested in, and all of the marketing of SE has made it clear it's a complicated, hyper-intensive, but comprehensive 4X/empire simulation. It's been very well-regarded and followed, even in Steam, and it will undoubtedly do very well.

That being said, I do agree that it may be advantageous to include some sort of tutorial/instruction piece beyond the manual. It's just good practice to do so anyhow. I just don't agree that there's any real danger to the game/its success if such an inclusion weren't made.

[Kolbex]

ORIGINAL: willgamer

DC:Barbarossa had Cameron Harris as the developer alongside Vic.

The differences in both the game and the manual are very apparent with respect to Shadow Empire.

Interesting. I own Barbarossa, although I have shamefully not delved too deeply into the game or its manual, and I am considering this one very strongly. When I heard Cameron wasn't going to come back for another game after DCB, I assumed that meant the roleplaying aspects I thought were so innovative in the wargame space were gone, but I know SE seemingly has some of the same sort of stuff (subordinate relationships, decisions), so I'd be very appreciative if you could elaborate on this!

[eddieballgame]

For me this game delivers on so many levels which is why I have played this game almost everyday since June 4th.
Of course...Covid-19 has been a contributor, also.
Would an in depth tutorial have helped me in the beginning...yes, except I never use them. [:)]
I tend (need) to learn the hard way, anyways.
Yes, you can raise an army of a specific unit type.

I did read the manual (more then once) & watched a lot of videos (DasTactics being the most viewed) which did help a lot. (& I still consider myself a weak player)
So much of this game entails figuring out how every aspect of the offered options, choices, & decisions have an impact on the results you achieve, either positive or negative.
As 'Das' suggests, there is "a lot under the hood".

There is a lot going on in this gem & based on what some universities offer for courses...this game could be one of them.

Considering how many younger gamers are into action, graphics, & most of the info needing to be on one screen; when this game is released on Steam, I recommend it comes with a disclaimer...for mature audiences, only.

[Texashawk]

ORIGINAL: SCSNV

I will say that I don't buy into the assertion that the game won't do well on Steam because of how complicated it is or the necessity to 'put in the work'. People don't buy things that they're not interested in, and all of the marketing of SE has made it clear it's a complicated, hyper-intensive, but comprehensive 4X/empire simulation. It's been very well-regarded and followed, even in Steam, and it will undoubtedly do very well.

That being said, I do agree that it may be advantageous to include some sort of tutorial/instruction piece beyond the manual. It's just good practice to do so anyhow. I just don't agree that there's any real danger to the game/its success if such an inclusion weren't made.

The analogy I would use is this:

I like to make complex Lego kits. Some of the most complex Lego kits contain upwards of 10,000 pieces. So let's say I purchase a complex Lego kit. My expectations are 2 fold:

1) It will be a beast to put together, but I like putting together Lego kits, so this is not an issue
2) The kit will have all the instructions I need to put it together properly

Now, if the kit is properly documented and the book leads me to finish the kit, that's the desired outcome! I knew it was going to be challenging but I was properly prepared for the journey by Lego, and the expected fun was had! Mission success.

But... what if the book was missing, or very poorly written?

Then my enjoyment at building the kit would be replaced by frustration - I would have to go online, look for videos on how to build the kit, see if there is a replacement/expanded instruction manual, and worst case try to build the thing without any help at all. Now, I have the exact same kit, and in theory I should have the exact same amount of fun, since it still builds whatever it is supposed to build, but the journey to get there is no longer fun. Regardless of what it was advertised on the box, my expectations can no longer be fulfilled because I was not set up properly to have that fun journey. I may get there in the end, but chances are my model will not look like what the designer intended because of that lack, and if I didn't really, really love to build complex Lego kits, it would almost certainly be returned, and I would probably think twice before buying a similar class of Lego kit again.

My point is that most Steam players, even though they may love complex Lego kits, probably don't have the patience to put together the kit given those circumstances, and I would hate to see that happen.

Does that make sense?

-Steve

[lloydster4]

Shadow Empire is always going to be a niche title because of its complexity. There does seem to be an issue with transparency. Learning the basics through trial-and-error will not be possible for most people.

Personally, I watched DasTactic's youtube series before I even bought the game. I won my very first game on Beginner difficulty. When I need to get some more info, I ctrl+f the manual and find what I need every time. Forum members are already compiling supplemental guides. The external resources required to learn the game already exist, but forcing players to seek out external help will drive away lots of people.

[willgamer]

Interesting. I own Barbarossa, although I have shamefully not delved too deeply into the game or its manual, and I am considering this one very strongly. When I heard Cameron wasn't going to come back for another game after DCB, I assumed that meant the roleplaying aspects I thought were so innovative in the wargame space were gone, but I know SE seemingly has some of the same sort of stuff (subordinate relationships, decisions), so I'd be very appreciative if you could elaborate on this!

< Message edited by Kolbex -- 7/13/2020 12:54:09 PM >

I'm blessed with the hardback DCB:Barbarossa manual. The care and attention that went into it is wonderful.

Almost every page has multiple color illustrations, Designers Notes, and importantly, Staff Advice sections. The latter explain many of the commonly asked questions and also give background and developer intent info.

Difficult subjects, like logistics(!), receive illustrated examples of play.

Additionally there are extensive designer notes at the back totaling 53 pages.

No editor is named, but someone did that job very well indeed.

Since Vic has mentioned his intention of a hardback manual later down the road. Perhaps (hopefully?), he also intends to bring someone of Cameron's abilities to produce it.

[Malevolence]

Who is Cameron?

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Who is Cameron?

From the DCB:Barbarossa manual in the A Word From The Designer section:

"This has been a dual effort between Victor Reijkersz and myself, Cameron Harris."

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: willgamer

From the DCB:Barbarossa manual in the A Word From The Designer section:

"This has been a dual effort between Victor Reijkersz and myself, Cameron Harris."

Ok; thanks. I thought VR Designs was one person supported by Matrix. Maybe Cameron is on a different product this round.

[JWW]

I agree on Steam and think some kind of guided in game tutorial would help a lot of new players.

I don't agree on the UI. I think it is good. I've never found it confusing. There is just so much to present that there is no simple way to present it. I'm sure it can be improved of course. Anything can be improved.