[1.08.03]Borderguard: Buggies or Machineguns?

[zgrssd]

Prior to 1.08.03, if you wanted to throw out a lot of units for a low manpower price (to pad out a frontline or guard a border) the usual answer was "Independant Machinegun":
- 500 Manpower
- cheap production cost
- pretty high defensive power

But with 1.08.03 I started thinking - what about the recon buggy?
- 500 Manpower base, but you do get back 66% and only pay food for 30 people/10 buggies
- a lot more expensive, unless you make a special design with no armor and minimal engine perhaps - but even then it is a bit more expensive
- same defensive power, given that it has the same machine gun
- better offensive power, given that it does not suffer Foot Infantries -50% to attack score

Did anybody else consider this idea?
How good does it work in practice?
Is the saved manpwoer worth the increased IP and Metal price?

[BlueTemplar]

Funny, I *just* added some buggies to my machinegunners for better recon !
So I guess both ?
They seem to be pretty complementary...
And in 5/2 ratios !

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Funny, I *just* added some buggies to my machinegunners for better recon !
So I guess both ?
They seem to be pretty complementary...
And in 5/2 ratios !

This is completely different from what I am talking about.

I am talking about using the 500 Man, indepedant machinegun groups vs using the 50 buggy, independant Buggy groups.
Not doing shenanigans with micromanaging the units of my formations to limit them to 3 subunits eahc.

[BlueTemplar]

You can do both.

For instance, you can have a Corps with :
A Commander with 300 "token" 1 metal & 1 IP infantry.
A relevant Posture (I'm using Fluid Defense).
5 regiments with 300-900 machineguns (= 1500-4500 total).
2 attached independent regiments with 30-180 buggies (= 60-360 total).

(I'm actually using a Heavy MG Infantry Brigade, not sure that OOB was actually worth investing into, though it *is* easier to raise than a Corps ?)

This way not only it costs you less PP to raise them 4+2*3 = 10 vs 7*2 = 14 (and with more maximum subunits per unit too !) -
(EDIT : Also, very important : it costs 0 PP to restore a lost formation unit !)
(Ok, I guess it's getting that commander that might be PP-expensive, though you can just throw a random cap I loser you don't need at it, for and effective cost of 0 PP)
- but you get the Commander and Posture bonuses to boot !

[BlueTemplar]

If you already have them, you might consider Light Tanks rather than buggies ?

Comparing with a 25mm Howitzer Light Tank (no techs), for 25mm (and especially 5mm plating), for Medium Diesel (and especially Light Diesel) engines :

Buggys seem to have a bit more HP vs soft, a bit less vs hard,
barely 1/4 (!) soft attack, same soft defense, ~1/4 hard attack, ~1/3 hard defense,
+25% recon, +5% more speed but wheels rather than tracks,

but for half Metal and ~1/1.5 IP cost !

Looks like buggies are mostly only better at defending against infantry, as long as that infantry doesn't get Combat Armor ?

And last but not least, light tanks can be used in many different formations, while buggies IIRC can only be independent ?

P.S.: What kind of Commander Skills do Buggies use ?

[zgrssd]

You do not seem to understand what I am talking about.
My usual instinct for a "Borderguard" is to try to find the cheapest unit manpwoer wise (wich also means food wise). Without playing around with Transfer!

Previously that title was held by the Independant Machinegun. 500 Men, 5 subunits, 5 Units of food per turn, still relatively cheap. Prettxy good defensive power.

However, with the changes in 1.08.03 beta, 50 Buggies can be cheaper in manpower by a long shot:
- Need 500 to field 5 subunits, but you get 2/3 of them back
- You only need to pay 1.5 Food for the whole 5 subunits
- a whole lot more expensive per unit, of course

I see no point to use Light Tanks here. They are neither as cheap as Machineguns, nor do they give most of the manpwoer back like Buggies.

[BlueTemplar]

Right, the manpower & food thing, got carried away with a parallel discussion about (pre-1.08.03 !) Buggies vs Light Tanks.

But then the answer to your question (which might include both, or even all 3 of the above) might depend on the conditions in the game ! (How valuable are Recruits vs Food vs Metal (& IP) vs Oil...)

And for Buggies / Light Tanks in Independent or Light Armor Battalions you *don't have* to play around with transfer.

Still, as you can see, Buggies are (mostly) much worse than Light Tanks, to the point where their cheapness might not be worth it, so depending on your situation, it might be more interesting to go for them instead ?

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Still, as you can see, Buggies are (mostly) much worse than Light Tanks, to the point where their cheapness might not be worth it, so depending on your situation, it might be more interesting to go for them instead ?

This sounds like a time for the Speed Rant, Part four:

Part the fourth: Is the difference relevant?

Suppose that you have actually identified a bottleneck: now the relevant question is not actually “which horse is faster?” Rather, the relevant question is actually “are either of these horses fast enough to meet my customer’s needs?” If neither horse is fast enough for your purposes then knowing which is faster is irrelevant. And if both are fast enough then you can base your decision on important factors other than performance, as discussed in part the second.

(The question also presupposes that the two alternatives proposed are semantic equivalents. If one of those is a horse and the other is a refrigerator, asking which one runs faster is maybe a non-starter.)

The same applies for a question of "Buggy or Tank". They are not syntactic equivalents.
They are not cost equivalents. With the Tank now also being worse in manpower, rather then just Metal, IP and fuel.

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

But then the answer to your question (which might include both, or even all 3 of the above) might depend on the conditions in the game ! (How valuable are Recruits vs Food vs Metal (& IP) vs Oil...)

I am aware those factors exist. I mentioned them in my Opening Post.
My question was, how much did you found it maters?
Did you rarely to never found the resources to actually go for Buggies?

[BlueTemplar]

I don't understand how your link is relevant ?

Do you really think you'd still rather have :
- 50 Light Tanks
OR
- 100 Buggies for ~same metal, ~+60% IP, -33% recruits (& food opex).

Considering that like light tanks, buggies are an offensive rather than defensive unit (postures, no entrenchment...),
(so comparing them to machineguns is a bit weird)
but which is ~4 times worse at it ?

You still might sometimes go for buggies for combat rather than recon even once you got light tanks,
one reason not yet covered here being the model design costs, but that's probably *very* situational ?

----

Well, in my case the attempt was very short lived :
(and I guess it was more about recon than combat anyway)
as I should have expected (and somewhat did, but crossed fingers) :
the buggies were very quickly blown to bits.
(They used the default model with only 5mm plating.)

I'm probably not going to bother to retry with better armored buggies -
(also : no side skirts, no cluster bombs !!),
and going to rely on spies instead for recon.