Open Beta Patch v1.26o2 (12 may 2025)

[Destragon]

When I try to start with the latest beta, I get some weird username and password popups and then the game just closes itself. This happens before I can even get into the main menu.

[Vic]

hold on.. will be fixing that right now

[Vic]

Please try again now. Should be the correct build now.

[Destragon]

Yeah, it's working now, thanks.
Time to figure out how this new system works. Sounds pretty neat at least.

[Destragon]

Am I not understanding something here or is there a bug in how these points are displayed in the traffic sign window?
How are these points adding up to 800? Why is it sending 341 points to the north east when there are only 200 requested?

[Falke]

ORIGINAL: Destragon
Why is it sending 341 points to the north east when there are only 200 requested?

It might be a display bug. I am getting similar unclear amounts.

The amounts do add up if you assume truck sent = Pull points. In your case 141+200+100+4x89 = 797 (3 points not used due to rounding)

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: Vic

And i posted the beta with the new Pull Points system added to the existing systems.

This will require some fine-tuning for sure. Looking forward to your feedback.

Best wishes,
Vic

Well.. I am so very VERY VERY happy that you've kept the option to disable in there.

Because this destroys the previous logistics experience.

I played with the new system.

I had to do zilch.

This reduces any problem to: build more truck stations (basically). Like some of us who liked the system already feared and wrote in the threads about it.

What to me is the brilliance of this game is that you do not feel like a robot pulling levers like in so many 4x's: get a pop-up that this is going wrong and a link towards the screen where you can fix it.

No, here you are immersed being a leader because you can anticipate, figure out things, fix things yourself. No hand-holding.

With this new pull system there is hardly any noticeable logistics system compared to how it used to be.
Sure you'll need to build a few roads and upgrade stations and plonk down supply stations/rails and such still, but for me personally the fun is gone.

The satisfaction of anticipating needs, working with the system to ensure optimal solutions and get the joy of seeing it all works out. Or get hasty/forgetful and a few turns later it was your inaction that made a mess, and then fix it.
That's cool. Makes me feel I am needed as leader

I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.

The big problem, as it always is with such things, is that the machine (after bug fixes if necessary) doesn't make mistakes. Cannot forget to check stuff. So it's 100% BETTER to enable this system.
Which makes me very sad. This game celebrates player agency in levels I have never seen before (for example in digging through reports to figure out causes and solutions of, say, the private economy tanking).
But this is a step in the other direction.

Players who want to win will enable it. They would be silly not to. And thus the fun (how I see it) is sacrificed for efficiency, because many always seem to want to win even at the cost of fun. They feel winning is the ultimate fun, I guess. I do not agree.

Luckily this is mostly a PvE single player and with others you can always play house rules with this disabled (if it has the protection from the option being set in the game start menu during game creation baked in in the saves so no one can cheat by turning it on).
Because otherwise the people who want to win will always turn it on.

And if the majority plays with the pull system there will be more support for playing with the pull system.. and so it may go.

It hurts. I really think this game is brilliant. I want to protect it the way it is, with of course fixes. This is nothing positive but a dangerous slippery slope to me personally.
I will always disable it.
But in the back of my mind I'll know I am playing sub-optimally. That there is an easy way out. That I can deal with, but it's still a little bit less enjoyable than if this hadn't even existed.
Maybe give it a cool name like 'hardcore LIS' in the game start options. Helps a tiny bit :p

I'm sorry Vic, I really am, if this is not something you wanted to read. What can I say? I totally get it: for the majority this will be totally great. I just practically always, for some reason, belong to the minority. And I was so happy to get a game that really understand what I find fun to do.

As for direct feedback: It just works. You coded it well. Probably will make you extra money on Steam.
Probably the sensible choice. For real, no joke. You made the right choice for your company.

Thank you so, so, so much for making it optional. Please keep that always in there. And like I said: put it in the game start options and then make it unchangeable ingame, please.

Thanks for reading.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Well.. I am so very VERY VERY happy that you've kept the option to disable in there.

Because this destroys the previous logistics experience.

I played with the new system.

I had to do zilch.

This reduces any problem to: build more truck stations (basically). Like some of us who liked the system already feared and wrote in the threads about it.

Hyperbole much?

At best it removes Traffic Sign Micro. Wich in itself was a dead end, as you are not supposed to fix logistics issues like that. I do not know how people got the idea "building a maze out of traffic signs" was a way to fix Logistics Issues. But now at least you have no more excuse for that.

You still can not run a 1000 Logistics Consumption Line with a 400 Capacity Truck Line. All you would get is 400 flowing into the right direction - unless there is pull on the other directions as well.

[GodwinW]

No hyperbole.
And definitely no "Hyperbole much?" [:-]

[JWW]

Of course it is still beta, and Vic is saying it is experimental, but is the goal to have an "easy" and a "hard" system? I noted preference choices in the latest beta, and am wondering if the preferences will be left in.

[Destragon]

The traffic sign micromanagement to ensure that required logistics actually are sent into the direction where they are needed was pretty much my ONLY complaint about Shadow Empire.
I'm really happy that this is actually getting improved.
In my view, there was absolutely zero player decisionmaking involved there. You were just clicking on buttons to reach a goal that had one correct solution. This was really something that the computer should be doing for you. In the same way that the computer does any other calculations for you, so you don't have to pull out a calculator to do them manually.
To be clear, we are talking about the required logistics for assets, cities and units here. You can still use traffic signs to decide where your leftover logistics points should be spent.

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.

I don't really understand why you would be requesting that. Just to not be tempted into removing micromanagement? I really think you should give it some more time before coming to conclusions like that. The current implementation of this system seems pretty buggy to me right now anyway.

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: Destragon

To be clear, we are talking about the required logistics for assets, cities and units here. You can still use traffic signs to decide where your leftover logistics points should be spent.

The leftover? You mean that part which can only ever be useful for strategic movement and raising formations? That's a seriously small use case to bother micromanaging stuff for if the rest is automated.

ORIGINAL: Destragon

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.

I don't really understand why you would be requesting that. Just to not be tempted into removing micromanagement? I really think you should give it some more time before coming to conclusions like that. The current implementation of this system seems pretty buggy to me right now anyway.

Even if it's buggy (I paid zero attention to it to prove/disprove I still needed to pay attention to it*), it works fine enough.
And no, that isn't it.
I actually wrote the reason in the post: PvP. And the small satisfaction of knowing you're playing with 'hardcore' rules. But that's just a bonus. I guess not being tempted to double-check what the system would do is also a bonus indeed. But the reason = PvP.

[Falke]

A full evaluation of the new system will require playing 100+ turns on a large map.
What i can say so far is:-
a) An unspotted new private construction will not suddenly cripple supply - This will help new players or thoose that have not researched log in depth or who check preview points every single turn
b) The logistics are still not optimised with purely the pull system
c) Build more works with or without the pull system, but is not optimal since it also consumes resources
d) The requirement to set traffic signs is reduced, but remains for optimal useage

[willgamer]

Well... let the yammering begin yet again! [:'(] [:D]

My bias is the original LIS; having said that-

1. Options are good, especially hard vs. easy, when it comes to selling into both Matrix and Steam.

2. The more I play, the more LIS tuning I do with or without the new option, such as rebuilding roads to optimize routing (like real life).

3. Let's consider suspending until Vic develops this further and we all log a few more hours of game time.

[Destragon]

I think I noticed another bug with the pull system. They seem to ignore the traffic signs, which I think is intended, but they don't ignore the "block all" traffic sign, meaning you can at most block 95% of the leftover logistics points from traveling down that road, instead of being able to block all the leftover points from traveling there, but still having the pull points traveling there for the mine.

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

The leftover? You mean that part which can only ever be useful for strategic movement and raising formations? That's a seriously small use case to bother micromanaging stuff for if the rest is automated.

Yes, that was the only decision that you were making with the old system, too.
Like I said above, in my opinion the act of "making sure that your assets got their X logistics points to actually make them do their job and that your units weren't accidentally starving, because you had half your logistics being sent through a road to nowhere" was clicking buttons for the sake of clicking buttons, and I assume was only in the game that way, because there hadn't been code written yet to automate it.

[actrade]

Um, where is this option to turn on/off? Can't seem to find it.

[Destragon]

You need to activate traffic sign mode, then click on a tile. At the bottom there is a global setting to turn the automatic pull points off.

[actrade]

Ok thanks...assume red means on and clear is off?

[JWW]

Again, I'm not playing the beta, but I don't want the log system made too easy. Though I would not mind options to make it easier or harder. So I'm not commenting directly on the effect of the beta, just butting into the argument to say, Vic, don't make it too easy unless you leave "hard" or "advanced" options, or vice versa "easy/simplified," please. Options please. And thanks again, Vic, for this great game.

[Nachtjager]

I've put a stupid amount of hours into this game since it launched, and I've tooled around with the new beta to see the pull system in action.

My first impression is that it's a fantastic QOL addition and very intuitive. It makes it feel like all those characters in the SHQ and OHQ are capable of requesting their own supplies and that zone governors are ensuring zones run smoothly. Much better than traffic signs alone, although I'm still waiting for an option to separate rail and road traffic signs.