Curious placement of Ottoman units in 1917 campaign

[mdsmall]

Another odd feature of the 1917 campaign is it starts in January 1917 with two Ottoman corps far from any Ottoman general, deployed among German and Austro-Hungarian units facing Russia. One corps is one hex east of Lemberg, the other is due east of Galati in eastern Romania. In order to make them effective, the CP player either needs to move them out of the front line and rail them back to the Ottoman Empire, or rail in two Ottoman HQs to command them.

I assume there must be a historical rationale for these two corps being where they are, as it makes little game sense. What's the story?

Cheers,

Michael

[BillRunacre]

That's where they were at the time, but I don't know that they had their own significant HQ present, or warranted one, as they were under the overall command of either German or AH generals. Offhand I cannot remember which.

[mdsmall]

Hi Bill - makes sense historically. Of course in the game, those two Ottoman units can not be commanded by the nearest German and AH generals. My impression is that the Ottoman army was more open to importing German generals or putting some of their units under German command than their status as Major power allows in the game.

[shri]

There were several German commanders in Ottoman army ranging from von Sanders to von Goltz pasha to von Kressenstein etc and finally even von Falkenhyn. So Germans should be able to control Ottoman troops but not vice-versa. Perhaps this can be coded into game.

[varsovie]

Hi Bill - makes sense historically. Of course in the game, those two Ottoman units can not be commanded by the nearest German and AH generals. My impression is that the Ottoman army was more open to importing German generals or putting some of their units under German command than their status as Major power allows in the game.

TBH I always thought that AH and Ger HQs should be able to command both nation's corps. Historically on the polish-galician front they were about as mixed up on the corps or even division level as the AH army was nationality-wise. It was because Ger didn't have the manpowerto be everywhere and the AH army was way more effective while having a small component of German troop. This is not represented(able) in this game as each "corps" is considered homogenous composed and you can't "attach" them to an army of an allied nation.

In the west front few AH art units were present in 14 belgium but otherwise it was Ger only. In the italian front Ger had smaller units integrated into AH formations but the front was mostly manned by AH forces, notably the Austrian national army Tyrolian militia.

As for Ger HQ be able to command Ott troops, I do not think it unnecessary, albeit an "expeditionary force" mechanic whereby the Ott troops in Russia can be led by Ger HQ only but used Ott MMP to reinforce, have moral from losses split 50/50 between Ger and Ott and be at Ott tech level could be nice.
And maybe the hability for Ott or AH to put Ger officers in charge of their HQs, with a surplus cost to MMP to select foreign officers.

[shri]

Hi Bill - makes sense historically. Of course in the game, those two Ottoman units can not be commanded by the nearest German and AH generals. My impression is that the Ottoman army was more open to importing German generals or putting some of their units under German command than their status as Major power allows in the game.

TBH I always thought that AH and Ger HQs should be able to command both nation's corps. Historically on the polish-galician front they were about as mixed up on the corps or even division level as the AH army was nationality-wise. It was because Ger didn't have the manpowerto be everywhere and the AH army was way more effective while having a small component of German troop. This is not represented(able) in this game as each "corps" is considered homogenous composed and you can't "attach" them to an army of an allied nation.

In the west front few AH art units were present in 14 belgium but otherwise it was Ger only. In the italian front Ger had smaller units integrated into AH formations but the front was mostly manned by AH forces, notably the Austrian national army Tyrolian militia.

As for Ger HQ be able to command Ott troops, I do not think it unnecessary, albeit an "expeditionary force" mechanic whereby the Ott troops in Russia can be led by Ger HQ only but used Ott MMP to reinforce, have moral from losses split 50/50 between Ger and Ott and be at Ott tech level could be nice.
And maybe the hability for Ott or AH to put Ger officers in charge of their HQs, with a surplus cost to MMP to select foreign officers.

Germans were usually loathe to give up command of their troops, their units fought as divisions or corps, not in smaller units with the Austrians. German commanders like Falkenhyn, Mackensen and others commanded AH, Bulgarian and later even Ottoman troops. Sanders, Kressenstein and Goltz were all loan generals from Germany.

Germany must ideally be able to command allied troops but not vice-versa.

[mdsmall]

Since I started this thread way back in 2022, I have learned that the Ottomans placed two corps under German command (General Mackensen) to support the invasion of Romania from Bulgaria. Hence the correct placement of these two corps in the 1917 scenario. It still does not get around the HQ command rigidities in the regular game.

I dealt with this in the Icarus mod by creating a new Ottoman minor called "Expeditionary Corps". The two DEs that allow Germany and Austria-Hungary to create expeditionary corps to aid the Ottomans now show up as units belonging to this minor. So does a third corps which the Ottomans can built through a DE which fires if Romania mobilizes for the Entente. The advantage of making these units of a minor power is that any Central Powers general can command them, allowing greater flexibility in deployments as happened historically.

[shri]

Since I started this thread way back in 2022, I have learned that the Ottomans placed two corps under German command (General Mackensen) to support the invasion of Romania from Bulgaria. Hence the correct placement of these two corps in the 1917 scenario. It still does not get around the HQ command rigidities in the regular game.

I dealt with this in the Icarus mod by creating a new Ottoman minor called "Expeditionary Corps". The two DEs that allow Germany and Austria-Hungary to create expeditionary corps to aid the Ottomans now show up as units belonging to this minor. So does a third corps which the Ottomans can built through a DE which fires if Romania mobilizes for the Entente. The advantage of making these units of a minor power is that any Central Powers general can command them, allowing greater flexibility in deployments as happened historically.

Yes, i am aware of your mod workaround. My only point was the "Central power allies" were ok with German leadership but not vice-versa.
The Mackensen army which conquered Serbia had substantial Austrian troops, the ones which conquered Romania were having Ottoman and most of the Bulgarian army along-side Austrian troops. The battle of Salonika (rather malaria infested swamp) had primarily Bulgarian, Ottoman and Austrian units under a German General facing allied command and so on.
Gallipoli and later Sinai was commanded by Sanders, a loan general from Germany, earlier Sinai was under Kressenstein. Goltz commanded troops in Mesopotamia and in the great Gorlitz-Tarnow offensive, army group under Mackensen had 1 full German army, a few independent corps and 2 Austrian armies.