Shadow of the Tsars-Poles into Russia

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I don't think the described malus will deter the Poles from crossing into Russia beyond the prescribed lines.
In testing, I never had access to a strategy guide....but I heard it would be bad for Poland.
Since I heard that..I never tested the waters to see before launch lol.

Here's the malus:
Poland
Polish Forces Advance into Russia (beyond bounds listed on page 4): -500
Polish Forces Advance into Russia (beyond bounds listed on page 4): -50/turn

-500 NM to cross beyond the Berezina River-Lake Naroch Line or outside the Baltic States or Ukraine is one thing, but not much.
-50 NM per turn isn't even a pittance.

In the Strategy Guide:
Due to diplomatic or political concerns, the following nations should only use their units
within the prescribed regions below. Failure to adhere to these limits will lead to severe
Fighting Spirit penalties, desertions of units and other undesirable consequences:
UK: The Caucasus, Crimea, Baltic States and northern Russia north of Lake Onega
France: No more than five hexes from Odessa
Poland: The Baltic States, Ukraine, and Russia west of the Berezina River and south of
Lake Naroch.


Poland crossing out of the prescribed regions doesn't really suffer 'severe' penalties at all compared to the UK or France.
I think this should be looked at again.

[Duedman]

I agree that -if there is nothing more to it - the penalties are way too low.

I have to add that -even with a way bigger NM penalty- I would still use them.
Minus 1000NM per turn? Who cares! They got 40k!

The reason beeing:
If the Whites are loosing due to NM drain / not close enough to Moscow - why leave the Poles out?
There is no benefit in having the Polish NM intact after you lost the game.

Even some desertion chip damage would not deter me from using them.
Maybe the 50% chance each turn of the Reds getting a free Corps would have me thinking.


While we are at it:
It is hard to see in where the Poles are allowed to go in the Baltics. THe Strategy guide is also not 100% clear I think.

And not to forget:
It is an awesome scenario! Thank you Devs for creating it!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

This is something I'll be looking at for the next patch. It's not as simple as just jacking up the penalties like I've done for the British, because Poland isn't really supposed to withdraw from the war the way other nations are (for them it's a matter of national survival - no-one is going to invite the Bolsheviks into Warsaw just because some general decided to go attack Smolensk). I found in SC2 that the desertion penalties were already harsh enough to prevent the Poles being much use beyond their allowed boundaries - maybe not the case here?

Once your YT match is close to done, would you be able to send me the screenprints of the MPP and FS graphs? (Certainly for Bolshevik, Poland, UK, Ural and Southern Whites, others aren't super relevant). Those will be handy in working out how strong to make the penalties.

- BNC

[Duedman]

We will try to do that.

Unless the Poles are above 1% they will always be useful. Even with reduced combat values due to very low NM the Polish units can still be super helpful as flanking guards, throw away detrenchers or just damage soakers.

So lowering Polish NM will not deter ppl from using them once they figured out that actually nothing happens.

Give the Reds a chance for extra free units instead would be better I think

[OldCrowBalthazor]

We will try to do that.

Unless the Poles are above 1% they will always be useful. Even with reduced combat values due to very low NM the Polish units can still be super helpful as flanking guards, throw away detrenchers or just damage soakers.

So lowering Polish NM will not deter ppl from using them once they figured out that actually nothing happens.

Give the Reds a chance for extra free units instead would be better I think

We need Jazon Chengdu to join this discussion, as he has commented on my channel (some of it got YT shadow-banned for god knows what reason) about the state of the Poles in 1919 through 1920 and how he saw some errors that made them too strong initially.
He created the 1920 Polish-Soviet War mod here also, and is an expert on this matter. Plus he's Polish . I'll try to contact him.
Here's a link to his mod..latest version. We were planning a redo sometime in the future..but for certain he would have some good input here regarding Polish National Policy regarding the lines specified in the Strategy Guide and the public's reaction to the Polish Army crossing outside their historic expanse, like outside the borders of Poland/Baltic States/Ukraine in the 1600 to 1800 century.

Jazon's 1920 Polish-Soviet War Mod link: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=355755

MP full-match test of an earlier version...first video of this playlist shows the map and initial placements and lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckH1-Sl ... 0D36rD7T4t

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hello, Duedman and I have been discussing this Poland situation off the forum.
Here's a copy of a portion of it including some additional ideas:
Copy OCB>
Hi, I have been reading up on Poland 1918 through 1921.

So Polish policy was to try to restore the old boundaries of 1772...before it got partitioned.
That and supporting an independent Ukraine in the East or outright make it a puppet state or annex part of it including Kiev.

Also, supporting the Baltic States as a shield/ buffer.

I would keep the Polish Army units as it is in the current scenario.

Historically, the Poles rushed to take Minsk and stopped at the Berezina River, and after defeating the Lvov Ukrainians (the Red ones in this scenario) they pushed and took Kiev and allied themselves with another Ukrainian faction (the White ones in this scenario)

The Bolsheviks retreated away on both fronts (as I did) since they were focused on the Southern and Ural Whites. The Bolsheviks knew that the Poles had no ambition to push on to Smolensk or beyond into core Russian lands, so just kept a screen on those fronts.

Later, in 1920, after the Reds got the upper hand and stopped the White Russians, they decided to divert massive forces to take back Kiev and Minsk and perhaps set up a Communist government in Warsaw.
Well they got stopped finally.
(Why Poland should have the army it has in the scenario).

The problem I see is Poland crossing those lines outlined in the Strategy Guide.

The penalties need either to be extremely harsh, as most of the Polish population would not support an invasion of heartland Russia, or just make it a rule that either Poles can't cross or only a very small number, like I outlined as an 'expeditionary' force a house rule.
<End OCB copy

Duedman additional ideas: Copy>
One could also weaken the Polish Forces initially and make them spawn a defensive army if the Reds come too close.

I still like the idea of Reds getting free units when Poles come too close.
More units more action
<End copy

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Some additional thoughts:
In a series of mails with Duedman.
Copy>
The more I think about it..the more I like one or both of your ideas.
1) If the Reds close in to say Baranovichi-Grodno...then the Poles get that group The Blue Army facing the Germans at Poznan (that spawns in the scenario now) at Warsaw. Actually as history shows, that's kind of what happened in 1920.

2) If the Poles cross the line..then the Reds get some kind of group. Not sure what or where.

3) Also..regardless of the above..the FS of Poland should drop hard, and desertions should be possible every turn that they outside the specified 'safe' regions of Poland, Baltic States, and Ukraine.

Anyways my thoughts.
Also, So XXX got back to me and wants to proceed with a SotT production next month. I'll be playing Whites.
I'm going to tell him about the Poles and House-rule that only 3 Polish units max can cross those lines.
At least till someday in the future when something gets figured out.

One other topic is diplo. Not sure but the Bolsheviks get 2 chits. The UK alone gets 3, but that may be a bug.

[Duedman]

The more I think about it..the more I like one or both of your ideas.
1) If the Reds close in to say Baranovichi-Grodno...then the Poles get that group The Blue Army facing the Germans at Poznan (that spawns in the scenario now) at Warsaw. Actually as history shows, that's kind of what happened in 1920.

2) If the Poles cross the line..then the Reds get some kind of group. Not sure what or where.

3) Also..regardless of the above..the FS of Poland should drop hard, and desertions should be possible every turn that they outside the specified 'safe' regions of Poland, Baltic States, and Ukraine.

My 2cents:

To 1:
I'm not sure whether the Poles need even more units. Reds seem already stretched thin. Might actually be, that the Whites are the stronger faction.
If the Poles go all in on Ukraine, one way of relieving pressure would be to send a few Red units towards Warsaw from Minsk direction. Now if in that case the Poles can rely on guaranteed spawns of even more units, that would lift any risk from their shoulders.
Maybe give them less units to begin with and then some extra spawns?

To 2:
Why I was advocating for a % chance for Red reinforcements was: The lines are not clear especially in the Baltics. A few episodes ago my Poles triggered the first NM hit and neither OCB nor me could figure out where that came from.
So one misstep spawning a whole Red armygroup would be quite harsh.

To 3:
Really depends on 2 I think.

[Jazon]

Hi Guys and Merry Christmas!
I was bit busy recently, but Old Crow called me out. So...basically Polish army was growing, naturally since the end of World War I in November 1918, but it was a process. I found some graphic that would show it precisely:

Polish Army1919.png (187.21 KiB) Viewed 1859 times

As you can see, initially it was very low on numbers, mostly improvised units. In the east it was so called "self-defence units", but they were on a size of regiments. In other part of Poland they were formed from Polish Military Organization (conspiracy structure inside German and AH-armies, waiting for the time to start uprising).When Bolsheviks started to advance in the beginning of 1919 (Lenin gave the order to Red Army to go to reach former Russian Empire borders it was met but those improvised units. However, those units were on high morale, because everybody were drunken with freshly regained independence. Józef Piłsudski(who was appointed supreme commander) ordered to attack the Reds, who had numerical superiority, but were poorly supplied and commanded. Therefore enthusiastic Poles easily took Minsk, Wilno in spring 1919.
In spring 70k General Józef Haller's Blue Army came from France, fully equipped and trained, even with Tanks, which were used in February 1920 to retake Dyneburg from Bolsheviks together with Latvian forces.
In June those units were reinforced by "Wielkopolska" Army, units which were fighting Germans in Poznan region (So called Greater Poland). It is not a coincidence, because those units couldn't leave Poznan, until Germans signed up Treaty of Versailles in June 1919, and Poland’s western border was officially recognized by Entente and Germans themselves. If Polish troops leave what they took in Wielkopolskie uprising in winter 1919, Germans would be more than happy to unleash the Freikorps and took it back. So in game those troops should be available let's say in July, after Poland’s western border was guaranteed by France. Another Polish division was in Odessa since spring 1919, this was Division that were fighting on the Russian side against the Germans, but after Revolution it started its journey from Kuban to Europe, where finally the French gave it a lift by sea to Odessa, from where it travelled by rail to Poland and was renamed as 10th division.
Later in the year Polish Army started to grow organically, because when those units came to Poland they needed logistics, barracks, depots etc. It reached 600k in the end of 1919. Also France was already delivering some equipment in that year so artillery started to appear in considerable amounts.
Conclusion: Poles should get new units gradually, in stages:
0.Basic infantry units, those insurgents in eastern Poland, infantry and cavalry.
1. Blue Army[trained and equipped in French way] beginning of April 1919(historically they deb-locked Lvov which was under siege by Ukrainians, defended by polish volunteers).
2. After Germans sign the treaty of Versailles, Wielkopolska Army (trained and experienced, German way, it had air force, from the planes taken over during uprising on the german airfields around Poznan]; 4th Division in Odessa [trained and equipped in Russian style].
3. If you want to add some flavor in December 1919 Kosciuszko air Squadron recruited from American volunteers was formed. It was commanded by future King-Kong director(no kidding), Merian Cooper. So you can give Poles additional to this basic Wielkopolska air squadron another one (Poles were developing air force anyway, Americans were just assisting, but still flavor unit for me. Not all Americans went home for bbq in mid-1919).
4. Poland would also have a Volunteer Army trigger - If Bolsheviks will approach heartland Poland: for example 7 hexes from Warsaw or Cracow, Poland should receive Volunteer units (in history there were more than 100k infantry and cavlary) and additional help from Entente (MPP's ammo, supplies etc., maybe free artillery unit) France and UK send this help not from their love to Poland, but just from geopolitical reasons, they simply didn't want Bolsheviks to reach Germany. Anyways this help was significant.
5. Poland should have tank unit, because, however it would sound crazy to you, because of Haller's army, Poland in 1919 was 4th tank power of the...world(sic!), with staggering number of 120 Ft-17. I mean, if white Russians have a unit Poland should have it too, and more advanced (Ft-17 were high-tech for 1919 reality)

As for Poles going on Moscow: Just after regaining independence there was a debate between tow main political sides, how future Poland should look like. Piłsudski advocated for going East and form alliance with independent Ukraine Belarus and Baltic States, to geopolitical block Russia. So he opted Polish borders could go to previous Polish borders from 1772. Nationalists with Dmowski claim that's wrong idea, because Poland would have to much minorities and it will actually harm the new country, and provoke internal conflicts. Basically Poles agreed for Lvov and Vilnus to be Polish, but not for Kiev or Smolensk. Minsk was as far as some people tolerated. In south Galicia, Volhynia, part of Prypet Marshes. So there should be definitely a morale penalty against going too much east, because when Piłsudski in 1920 actually attacked on Kiev, nationalists started press campaign all over country and protested in parlament etc. They called Piłsudski a Napoleon, sick tyrant, accusing him he is a protestant/jew/Austrian agent, you name it. He wasn’t but it was the fact, that going east was very unpopular among the National Party, and soldiers from Western Poland.
Poland could even get desertion events, when crossing some line east.
But it works both ways, when facing danger in 1920, Poles formed Government of National Defence and in September 1920 Polish Army was around 900k... So as I said volunteer units, maybe morale boost event, and MPP’s from entente.
Just my thoughts
What do you guys think?
Cheers
Jazon

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Oh this is great Jazon and will help unpacking this complicated aspect concerning Poland during this chaotic conflict.

[Duedman]

yes. great historical insights, thank you Jazon. It shows that the young Polish state was in danger of beeing torn apart internally.
From a game design perspective the scenario can not allow Polish forces to go all in on Russia. If a player can use the Poles to achieve a White victory without experiencing serious drawbacks, the player will just use those Poles. Whether the Poles disintegrate after a White victory ( = badly damaged NM) is of no concern to the white player cuz he has won already

[gamer78]

Hmm but Red Army was a million by 1919. Then Enver Pasha did think about Turan but was killed by Armeninian Bolseviks by machinegun.

[Jazon]

Hi,
Yes, but in case of Poland this amount of soldiers was engaged on relatively narrow strategic theatre, while Bolsheviks had few strategic theaters to cover. Ergo, Poles in sepcific circumstances could compete with Bolsheviks in numbers.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hi,
Yes, but in case of Poland this amount of soldiers was engaged on relatively narrow strategic theatre, while Bolsheviks had few strategic theaters to cover. Ergo, Poles in sepcific circumstances could compete with Bolsheviks in numbers.

Hi Jazon. Yep the Poles are numerous and alone separated by distance from the Southern and Ural White masses..can hold their own, as it should be.
The problem I am seeing is the Polish Army crossing the lines set forth in the Strategy Guide..the 'Polish National Policy Line-PNPL' I like to call it.

I have another MP match planned as Whites with another YouTuber. I mailed him a house-rule proposal that either 1) No Poles leave Poland, Baltic States, Ukraine, and Makhnovist Territory, or 2) Only 3 Polish units allowed outside the 'PNPL.
At least that's what I am thinking for balance and historical reasons, at least till some kind of fix is in, in the future.

I believe Duedman is asking for that also in a match he has started as Reds with another YTbr.
As a sportsman..he has withdrawn his Polish Army in our current match. I didn't ask him to do that...but in private discussions while playing and having the Strategy Guide in hand..we figured out that this situation needs to be fine tuned.

Your input has been a huge help my friend.

[Jazon]

Hi,
yes, I agree those house rules you made are very reasonable. Poland was too weak to attack Russia strategically, and there was no consensus in Polish political elite to condict such action. Maybe, some kind of "expeditionary-volunteer unit" actions could be accepted, as it was with Polish-Lithuanian Division which was used in 1920-1921 to recapture Vilnus. (Famous fake mutiny of Gen. Żegligowski). We need to also know, that any offensive movements were very difficult for Poles, because they just regained independence in 1918, after 123 years... So imagine that in 1919 Poland, there were two seperate rail systems, three law and administration systems, conflicts with minorities and clashes with neighboiurs (Czechs and Lithuanians, not to mention Germans). In Polish army alone, generals themselves were split between National Party and Piłsudski's camp. Some generals were playing their own political agenda, which would impede any preparations for large offensive in the east.
Piłsudski was a big player in geopolitical sense, but the resources he had were scarce. Therfore for this scenario reason, Poland should not actually influence inner-Russian war, but rather would be a final objective for Soviet player, after he beat the Whites. We can do it either by editing the scenario - line crossed by Polish units would trigger morale drop, MPP's drop(strikes, there were actually strikes in Poland in 1920 provocated by Bolshevik agents), or desertion events (this one is easy to do, any Polish unit being ex. close to smolensk, would recieve random desertion event). Maybe in some update devs can implement this kind of solutions.
Happy New Year to all!
Jazon

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Well we got some great ideas from the developer that will deal with this Polish situation as it stands currently. This and other things for balance and historical reasons. I can't reveal those yet, so in the interim until some changes are made I have some suggested house-rules for MP. Also, I made two maps showing the lines outlined in the Strategy Guide regarding Poland as a players aid. This will help in visualizing Poland's A.O.,whether using the house-rules or not.
Note on the map where it says "Poland Allowed" or "Poland Not Allowed" is intended for the house-rules...but it should help when not using them, as Poland will lose FS if crossing the boundaries as shown on the maps.

House-Rules for Shadow of the Tsars MP play:
1) Polish Units restricted to Poland, Ukraine, Baltic States, Makhnovist Territory, and Russia west of the Berezina River\Lake Naroch.
2) 4 Diplo Chits max for the Whites.
3) Southern Whites must disband the Tank..but keep the MMPs that are gained.
4) Bolsheviks can not build a Tank.
5) Poland can build a Tank.

I believe Duedman in another MP match is using something similar. He has done the same in our current match.
Again these rules are just a suggestion..but I am going to use them as Whites in a future match.

Hope these maps help as an aid with the geography outlined in the SotT Strategy Guide concerning Poland.

[Klydon]

I am joining this conversation very late, but I like a lot of what I see in the suggestions.

I just got done playing a single player as the Bolsheviks and won a decisive victory. It was more of a learning game, etc. Great scenario by the way.

So I think something is messed up with the Polish national fighting spirit. The game ended and the Poles had 3 units left (2 divisions and a bomber unit). Warsaw was occupied the turn before and the Poles lost 21 units including 2 HQ which are usually pretty big hits on fighting spirit. Despite all this, their fighting spirit is still 89 when the game ended. That seems really high to me considering the beating they took and what happen in terms of the map position.

The Poles are fairly strong in the game. The downside for them is not much of an economy so they are not going to be doing a lot of tech and if they get into a major slugging match, I doubt they will be able to make good on their losses.

I am looking forward to giving the Whites a spin in this scenario and will likely limit myself to the rules OCB laid out. The tank unit is very strong for the Bolsheviks and helps easily crack the front where they decide to use it. The Bolshevik's best AT unit was actually the train. It was fairly reliable in popping the tank for a point a turn.

[gamer78]

I think scenario is missing some points about internal conflicts about events instead choose foreign intervention. It was designed like that in the first place many years back.. ACW was better done about internal and local force. So saying is, a local conflict such as this one about influence World is not like Caribbean scenario Monkey İsland, many more..

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I think scenario is missing some points about internal conflicts about events instead choose foreign intervention. It was designed like that in the first place many years back.. ACW was better done about internal and local force. So saying is, a local conflict such as this one about influence World is not like Caribbean scenario Monkey İsland, many more..

What events do you think I should add? I'm in the middle of revamping the scenario (actually that's an understatement ) so now's the perfect time for suggestions if you have them!

- BNC

[mdsmall]

G'Day Ryan,

You might consider adding a couple of events to reflect action on fronts in the Russian Civil War beyond the edges of the existing map. I am thinking of the Japanese and British siege of Vladivostok and the Reds take-over of Turkmenistan in Central Asia. They may not be very material to the progress of the war against the three main White factions in the game, but still it would add historical depth to have at least a pop-up or two dealing with those more distant fronts.

Michael