Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920

FOARP
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RE: First quarter of Map finished!

Post by FOARP »

ORIGINAL: Jazon

Hi!
FOARP you are right about the mountains and rivers/roads. Soon I will be facing that while brushing the southern part of the map.
As for Silesian uprisings - during polish-bolshevik war Second Silesian Uprising took place in August 1920. I donno yet how to put this into my scenario - because it hadn't got any impact on ongoing war with Soviets. Maybe - I need to research it - Poland will cede some of it's MPPs to support the insurgents. But to be honest I need to dig into the history of this conflict more. I am reading monography about this conlfict and doing notes what events I should put into scenario.
Below you can see Podlasie region and West Belarus. I donno if its good it looks little "naked" but as far as I did my research this region was under-developed in those times.
Anyway today I will start doing second quarter of map: Vilnus, Smolensk Gate region and Polesie Marshehs.
Thanks everybody for comments and encouragement. I didnt expect this project will be so time consumming[:D]

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Looks good. Maybe add a little bit of bush terrain to the more blank bits of terrain and one or two hills (e.g., the Sokólskie Hills). Also labelling the lakes helps the player orient themselves. The Biała river that flows through Białstok might be worth adding onto the map - or is it too little?

Regarding Warsaw - was Praga as important then as it is now? Or was it just a small suburb at that time?

Yeah, editing maps in this system is really very time-consuming. I find I enjoy the historical research aspect of it, though, because you can learn things even about parts of the country I thought I knew well.
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Jazon
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Roads/forrests in Russian Empire

Post by Jazon »

Hi,
I am stuck guys. I made the second half of my map, with rivers, railroads, towns, and marshes. But now I hit the ceiling: I need info about roads and forrests in west Russsia/Belarus and Ukraine. Anybody got any intel please let me know. I can read in polish, russian, english and german(basic). Any hint where can I find some maps or other info about it would be much appreciated.
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RE: Roads/forrests in Russian Empire

Post by FOARP »

You cannot go too far wrong just looking at the existing roads and forests in Google Maps. Most modern-day roads follow the paths of previous roads, most modern forests are the remnants of larger previous ones.

Based on a brief search I see this 1882 map of the Zhitomir/Kiev region, this 1883 map of the Grodno/Wilno/Minsk region, this 1916 map might also be useful. This 1911 map of Northern Rumania/Western Ukraine might also be useful. This tool seems useful but a lot of the maps it includes are no longer available.

Does this help?
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RE: Roads/forrests in Russian Empire

Post by Jazon »

Hi,
thanks for support on this...I decided to make a few days break from doing map, and that was good decision. I researched more and more, using the tips you gave me. Finally find some German maps from 1942, one is made by wehrmacht that describes intresting region with heights, other in the same scale shows forrests. They seem pretty reliable, So I was able to finish another part of the map. I think its pretty accurate, and shows the terrain properly. Don't mind Daugavpils is a Latvia capital, I just make it like this because of the map design purpose.
About map...I don't know if people will not find it odd that there is so little roads on my map...But the more you go east, then, according to maps I researched [mostly polish and german maps from 1914-1925 period) shows in East Poland/West Belarus infrastructure is really low...
I also think is there any chance to represent the monitor fleet that were used in Pripet Marshes - Pinsk Flotilla - a group of vessels with strong firepower. Poles used them to control Pinsk and rivers around.

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Jazon
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Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by Jazon »

North East part of map finished!

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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by BillRunacre »

Nice!
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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by FOARP »

Good progress!

Theoretically you could represent river-monitor fleets by using straits for the rivers, but I don't think this has a good effect, plus the ships on the rivers wouldn't be able to act as proper artillery really. I don't think low-infrastructure is a problem so long as the Bolsheviks can actually advance through it.
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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by Jazon »

Polesie finished!
About polish monitor fleet - I guess I will need to abandon this idea, there is no way I can do it in reasonable way.
Soon I the map will be finished and new questions will emerge - like how to rate town's and Cities MPPs, and how to reflect in the game forces of Poland and Bolsheviks.
26 May 1920 Soviets on Western Front had 16 Infantry Divisions, 2 Cav. Divisions and Independent infantry brigade. On South West front they had 10 Infantry Divisions 5 Cavlary Divisions and two Cavlary Brigades. Alltogether its only 36 units, not enough to cover quite big map...I havent cracked it down yet, but if I use regiment sistem it would be to much units - some soviet divisions had 4 infantry brigades per division, so there would be suddendly almost 150 units for soviets(including artillery and HQs) Anybody tried some other system - like one unit - two brigades? Or should I use the quantity equvalent for Infantry? Like 5000 men = 10 strength points?

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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by Jazon »

Bielarus finished!

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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by FOARP »

Good work!
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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by Jazon »

Thanks FOARP!
I finished ukraine part of the map - I had two days off work so I could entirely devote to the task - now need some rest from map doing. Insted I am doing research about forces in 1920, and thinikng about using regimental system for Poles and Bolsheviks. Map is quite big and using only divisions wouldnt be appropiate. What do you think?

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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating

Post by Jazon »

and southern-east corner of map:

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How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by Jazon »

Hi,
I almost finished the map for the whole scenario, but now I encountered new challenge: How to calculate soviet and polish forces into actuall game units?
For example Soviet WEST FRONT 26 may 1920 according to sources (Russian military encyclopedia)gives following numbers: 16 Infsntry divisions, 2 Cavlry Divisions, 1 Independent Inf. Brigde formed in four armies: (see attachment to see unit table). Quantity, in sources "line" quantity is given, so only front units as following: 83k bayonets /5.5k sabres / or by other sources81k bayonets and sabres alltogether; 420-460 artillery pieces / 10 armoured trains / 1.7-1.9k MGs / 15 Armoured Cars / 67 planes.
Now question is how to put it into game? Artillery seems pretty easy: each 100 guns = 10 strength artillery pieces; armoured train? One weak unit? 1 unit weak recon bombers? How to count infantry? 83k/16 divisions gives ćirca 5187 bayonets per divison...
Any advices? Maybe 1k bayonets = 1 strength point infantry 500 sabres = 1 point cavlary strength?

The other topic is how to reflect units... maybe some brigades system? Help guys, any suggestions I would welcome to consider!
Cheers!

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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by FOARP »

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about being 100% accurate here. This is especially the case when even the generals who took place in the war didn't know how many troops they had. The number of units to have on the map should be the number that will be most fun to play with.

It looks like maybe the Soviets were arranged in two main groupings (Western Front under Tukhachevsky, and South-Western Front under Yegorov) and the Soviet strength maxed out at 7-800,000 men. Two-three HQ units, four-five artillery units, 20 infantry divisions plus additional brigades ("detachments") and cavalry brigades should do it. Aim to cover the front properly more than anything else.
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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by Jazon »

Hi, FOARP,
I totally agree that gameplay is the most important, however I got doubts, Soviet Units quantity on 26th May 1920 was 26 Infantry Divisions 7 Cavlary Divisions. It should be fine with additional units, but Poles had only 19 Divisions and 7 cavlary Brigades...I need to find a way to represent troops historically but also sufficent for gameplay. My FEAR IS THERE WILL BE NOT ENOUGH UNITS TO COVER THE MAP .Maybe I should use some brigade sistem :/
Meanwhile map is finished (raw material) just need to add specifics like weather and start deploying troops and set NM points...Loads of work still to do.

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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

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Map, south-east Carpathia:

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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by FOARP »

Looks good. I think if Żywiec falls then the Polish should suffer a massive fall in morale to simulate the loss of the all-important strategic resource that is produced there!

I assume the oil plant near Jasło represents the Gamrat chemical plant?

Regarding units, as you say you can always use brigades (i.e., detachments). You can change the name the game calls them in the localisation file, though the old name is kept in the editor. You can even change corps to divisions, divisions to brigades, and detachments to regiments, and garrisons to battalions (i.e., move everything down one level) to give yourself more scope for putting more units on the map.

You could even change corps to be called "brigades" so that brigades are the largest unit, with divisions being regiments, detachments being battalions, and garrisons being independent companies. I think each Polish division had three regiments of two battalions, and so was the equivalent of two weak brigades, plus an artillery unit. This would give the Poles ~38 infantry units and ~14 Cavalry units, plus a number of artillery units and HQ units (say, corps HQ units).

You can use text of different colours to distinguish geographical features from resource tiles (the standard font used for geographical features in the game is MS Trebuchet(Italic) in yellow). Similarly, when towns are located closely together you can use offsets to stop the names covering each other.

BTW - Do yourself a favour and never change the campaign start-date after you start coding events as in my mod changing it to experiment with some events basically caused big problems - I have fixed them but I'm not going to do that again!
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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by Jazon »

Hi, FOARP!
Thanks for lots of inspiring suggestions! Just yesterday I started cracking the unit system - and actually got to the conclusion that to cover the map is hould just multiply the number of units by two - so as you said, Each division should be more or less represented by two-three Units - some divisions, like Polish allies: Ukrainians and Belorussians had units named as divisions but in reality their quantity was merely a brigade, on the other hand some Polish elite units - like "Polish Legions" divisions were lead by Pilsudski handpicked officers and always received best equipment and men - they can be represented by 3 brigades for division for sure. (1st Polish Legions Infantry Division even had half-motorized regiment!). I was trying to change the name "detachment" for "Inf. brigade" in editor, now you opened my eyes I need to edit the scripts into the game...where can I found them? That would do I think, so divisions in game mechanics would represent a brigade in scenario. Also 100 guns would be an artillery unit, 50 planes a recon bomber unit, I don't know what about tanks - Poles had 120 of them but never used them as one force. Maybe I should split them in three weak companies as it was in reality? Cavlary division will also consist 2-3 regiments, For sure Budionny's Konarmia would have a Armoured car unit, as well as armored trains. I was thinking even to represent Soviet unique unit - tachanka - as a kind of hit and run light artillery.
Also I had a question: How to set sides? I put Poland as "entente" and Soviets as "central powers" in campaign settings. But I don't know how to check if they will be at WAR from the beginning of the game, and what about Germany - is it possible to set them as neutral?
Also how to mark territory which is occupied. At the beginning Poles will occupy pretty big chunk of Soviet territory - but I couldnt find in editor how to set it. I only know how to set borders, but no occupied territory...or it doesn't matter?
Oil Plant near Jaslo represent chemical industry over there - don't think it gamrat plant - this was found in 1937, but according to polish map from 1925 Jaslo had some petrochemical industry.
PS
How come you know about polish secret resources? Of course if Zywiec falls it would lead to total collapse of polish morale;)
Cheers!
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Strategical resource and questions:)

Post by Jazon »

Its not Zywiec but refers to polish strategical resource ;)

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FOARP
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RE: How to calculate Red Army strength?

Post by FOARP »

ORIGINAL: Jazon

Hi, FOARP!
Thanks for lots of inspiring suggestions! Just yesterday I started cracking the unit system - and actually got to the conclusion that to cover the map is hould just multiply the number of units by two - so as you said, Each division should be more or less represented by two-three Units - some divisions, like Polish allies: Ukrainians and Belorussians had units named as divisions but in reality their quantity was merely a brigade, on the other hand some Polish elite units - like "Polish Legions" divisions were lead by Pilsudski handpicked officers and always received best equipment and men - they can be represented by 3 brigades for division for sure. (1st Polish Legions Infantry Division even had half-motorized regiment!). I was trying to change the name "detachment" for "Inf. brigade" in editor, now you opened my eyes I need to edit the scripts into the game...where can I found them?

In C:\Users\[your name]\Documents\My Games\Strategic Command WWI\Mods\[your mod] edit (or create if it isn't there, by copy the localization file from the base game) the text file called localization. Unit IDs are at line 1970. You can also change the names of resources (e.g., you can rename oil resources as "chemical plant") and rename countries here. Note that the name used in the editor won't change but the name used in the game will.

If you don't have a mod file set up I can tell you how to set it up - it's a bit complex though.
ORIGINAL: Jazon That would do I think, so divisions in game mechanics would represent a brigade in scenario. Also 100 guns would be an artillery unit, 50 planes a recon bomber unit, I don't know what about tanks - Poles had 120 of them but never used them as one force. Maybe I should split them in three weak companies as it was in reality? Cavlary division will also consist 2-3 regiments, For sure Budionny's Konarmia would have a Armoured car unit, as well as armored trains. I was thinking even to represent Soviet unique unit - tachanka - as a kind of hit and run light artillery.

Those all sound like good ideas. It is hard to create an all-new unit as a lot of things are hard-coded, but if you have time it might be possible to, say, replace the "ANZAC" unit with another units - either Polish legions or other elite infantry.
ORIGINAL: Jazon Also I had a question: How to set sides? I put Poland as "entente" and Soviets as "central powers" in campaign settings. But I don't know how to check if they will be at WAR from the beginning of the game, and what about Germany - is it possible to set them as neutral?

You can change Germany to be a minor in the editor (campaign -> Edit Major Country IDs Data, then click on Germany and use the left-pointing arrow to remove them). You can then set them to be neutral in the Country Data interface.

To set Poland and the Soviets to be at war, assuming both are already set as major countries, got to Campaign -> Edit Country Data, select Poland and use the Belligerence interface to select the Soviet Union and tick the box. Do the same with the Soviets. Make sure that both are fully mobilised. You'll have to decide what graphics to use for Poland - I assume the French unit graphics (bitmaps/Major_02) should be a good starting point since the Poles used a version of the Adrian helmet and of course General Haller's army was entirely French-equipped.

If you want you can also change the name and flag used by the Soviets. I think #COUNTRY_ID_116 is presently set to be called "USSR" in the localisation files, but you can change this to "Soviet Russia" if you like since the USSR hadn't officially been formed in 1920. The flag can be changed by finding the relevant bitmap files, locating the USSR flag i each file, and then replacing it with the flag of Soviet Russia used in 1920. GIMP is a good freely-available graphics editing tool that you can use to create circular flags etc. of the correct size. As normal, names won't change in the editor (though the graphics will change) but will change when you load the scenario in the game.
ORIGINAL: Jazon Also how to mark territory which is occupied. At the beginning Poles will occupy pretty big chunk of Soviet territory - but I couldnt find in editor how to set it. I only know how to set borders, but no occupied territory...or it doesn't matter?

When you edit ownership in the the hex layer (i.e., the green hex) you can select the terrain you want to change, right click on the Soviet-owned territory that you want to be occupied by Poland, and set controller as Poland but owner as the Soviets.

Oil Plant near Jaslo represent chemical industry over there - don't think it gamrat plant - this was found in 1937, but according to polish map from 1925 Jaslo had some petrochemical industry.
PS
How come you know about polish secret resources? Of course if Zywiec falls it would lead to total collapse of polish morale;)
Cheers!


I have a spy on the inside ;)
ORIGINAL: Jazon

Its not Zywiec but refers to polish strategical resource ;)

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Those pictures would be great for a pop-up event BTW!
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