Resolved: submarines are in need of a lot of help

[CaesarAug]

I think Elessar2 referred to 6 hexes (for the WaW map) as a suggested maximum setting for sub retreat, not dive, a different dynamic though somewhat similar. He is going to test 8-hex maximum retreat on the world map…

It seems that the sub dive dynamic provides a maximum of 2 hexes which all of us seem to think could be more, but that aspect is hard-coded.

[Bavre]

What stops me from doing much with subs in WaW are 2 things:

1)
The vision range units like Naval Bombers and CVLs get from range tech and that it works 100% vs subs in both modes. One Naval Bomber in Scottland, one in Cornwall and bye bye sneaky times.

2)
While air attack vs subs increases a lot, they never seem to get any form of damage mitigation except diving. So a Naval Bomber or CVL with good ASW eventually can kill a lvl 5 sub in two blows for no damage in return.

That's why they seem to be kind of a dead end tech here imho.

In WW1 context I think we had this discussion a while ago and iirc the result was something like "Yes they suck at convoy raiding, but are super powerful in other roles" (mostly due to lack of uber air power and different map scale)

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Thanks for the correction about subs not losing a supply point when they dive. I should add that in principle I like Elissar's idea of increasing their movement when they dive. I think 6 hexes is too much but even making it 3 hexes will increase significantly the amount of water that has to be searched to find a dived sub and thus would add to their stealth.

Remember we are talking about 3 SC games here, one (WaW) which has a smaller area of ocean to dive in for example.

In my opinion, supply getting dinked by repeated hits in one turn is wrong. Also dive max range tailored to WiE/WWI and WaW needs to be different. I advocate a larger dive range for sure.

Also, and this is a big one that works very well with MdSmall's Icarus Mod, is that ASW upgrades only can be put on DDs and CLs.

In some MP matches, to my at times detrimental effect, I never upgraded capital ships with ASW. I never told my opponents I did them that favor...but I felt better myself when I did that.

When Mike proposed that same mechanic for his Icarus Mod...I agreed wholeheartedly that this would be a good change.

[Elessar2]

Units that run "into" the sub that are not an active destroyer, the sub should be able to fire back multiple times per turn (now it is just one combat and done) - this would prevent using capital ships to discover subs etc.

Very simple fix ...

Upping their surprise % bonus from the current zero to 30-60% would be a sufficient deterrent and can be done right now. You won't be using your battlewagons as ASW scouts if they risk losing 5 points of damage if they run into a sub, with increased ZoC penalties stopping it in its tracks and giving the sub a chance of sinking it on its on turn.

Along with these modifications, another issue is a sub’s naval defence values… not sure about how to mod that… set to zero or some positive, research upgradeable value?

More playing around in the editor revealed that tech gives subs NO defense bonuses of any sort. My subjective impressions have been that subs take more damage as a scenario goes on, and this is why. Just a 0.5 point increase per level should help.

Bavre, giving them AA capability would also help vs aircraft, as was also historical.

OCB, I have no issues with capital ships having solid ASW ratings-on defense only. Recall each capital ship counter in vanilla at least has been conceptualized as a task force, with attendant escorts, which are the ships actually getting the ASW bonus, not the battlewagons themselves. [Yes in my scenario they have been reimagined as single ships only, and I thus may knock their sub defense down to zero for our next match (thanks!)].

[OldCrowBalthazor]

OCB, I have no issues with capital ships having solid ASW ratings-on defense only. Recall each capital ship counter in vanilla at least has been conceptualized as a task force, with attendant escorts, which are the ships actually getting the ASW bonus, not the battlewagons themselves. [Yes in my scenario they have been reimagined as single ships only, and I thus may knock their sub defense down to zero for our next match (thanks!)].

Oh I understand quite fully that any ship counter in vanilla SC is a taskforce and explained this concept to others that don't get that. Same with folks comparing an upgraded German Panzer Corp as being all PzIVs or Panthers for Pete's sake, when in fact there may be only a few hundred tanks of that type spread amongst 3 divisions imbedded in that Corp.

I don't want to argue, but are there the same number of DDs in a DD ship counter as in a BB ship counter?
It's abstract, so probably a mute point...and maybe your right to have ASW on the larger ship types if other changes are implemented for subs to make them more viable, especially in WaW.

mdsmall's Icarus Mod I was referring to prohibited ASW on anything above cruisers. It worked well for SC-WW1. However he still slammed his capital ships into them to dink thier supply (a kind of running them down effect) but with little risk with the current surprise mechanic.

For WaW..Submarines need a higher dive range. Like Elessar has told me, that is hard coded at 6 I believe. It really needs more like 8. Also, as noted, the continuous hits on supply in one turn are an issue with all the games.
I would say again, because of the scale of WaW, that this game should be handled slightly differently because of the scale. The oceans just aren't big enough for subs to really survive very long in WaW.
The latter point isn't so acute with WW1 or WiE when it comes to dive ranges..but in my opinion that needs to be enhanced also with the other measures proposed.

Anyways...this is a great discussion and I'm sure we grognard scamps will find a good solution to the submarine issues. It's quite evident that that changes need to be done. WaW for sure because the limited battle space submarines can participate in.

[CaesarAug]

In WaW I was under the impression that the sub dive parameter was hard-coded to a maximum range of 2 hexes, not 6, hence the suggestion to enable sub retreat and set a maximum hex range of 6-8.

By game-default, sub retreat is disabled precisely because of sub diving. These two features are somewhat similar but work differently.

But as far as I know, sub dive is hard-coded to max out at 2 hexes. But if it maxes out beyond 2 hexes, that would be great to know.

Maybe one of the developers can confirm the maximum sub dive hex range?

[Elessar2]

Never seen them dive more than 2 hexes away.

I am about to run another iteration of my testbed scenario with the changes indicated above, will see how it all works out.

[CaesarAug]

I concur: I don’t recall ever having seen one of my subs dive more than 2 hexes away from its attacker. Could be hard-coded (most likely) or a coincidence, for as the attacker, you cannot be totally certain each time if the sub dives and you lose contact.

It would be great to add adjusting sub dive hex range to the editor…

I plan to do some more testing as well…

[Hubert Cater]

I can confirm that it is indeed hard coded and a maximum range of 2 hexes

[CaesarAug]

Thank you, Hubert! It confirms our impressions. Good to know for sure.

With this info, and as per our comments on this thread, subs can more easily be given a higher retreat hex range for those players who want to mod a more stealthy, cat & mouse like sub warfare.

[Elessar2]

Set sub retreats at 8 hexes, 50% chance, and one indeed retreated (the full 8, and towards a friendly port yay). But endured another half a dozen attacks on my subs when their health was below 5, and none of them retreated. May need to retest w/ 100% retreat, since I suspect that if they dive they can't retreat (if you get the relevant message, vs. no message even if it is already underwater). In which case CaeserAug's reiterated suggestion today I think has to be made moddable in the editor.

[CaesarAug]

Been testing too. Needs further testing but I got the impression that having enabled 100% retreat, my subs seemed to dive less, though I made no change to the dive parameters. And I also noticed that the subs did not always retreat as expected, not the hex range, but that it didn’t retreat at all with even 100% when the criteria for retreat was seemingly met.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I made a typo. I never seen subs dive off over 2 hexes in WaW either. I meant to say 6 hexes at least are needed, and 8 sounds better.

I'll leave this to the modding gurus.
Mea Culpa.

[CaesarAug]

Since we can’t mod sub dive hex range (yet? ) has anybody tested a maxed out 100% sub dive chance? Game default parameters go from 40-90% with research increments, if memory serves.

Elessar2 was in the process of testing base dive chance of 50%, and presuming a 10% increment for 5 research levels, the dive chance should max out at 100%, presuming no anti-submarine warfare countermeasures.

I wonder though if that 100% is theoretical or practical. The reason I mention this is because a 100% retreat setting doesn’t guarantee a retreat 100% of the time when the criteria for retreat are seemingly met.

But since the dive mechanism works differently than the retreat mechanism, I was curious as to a 100% dive chance and the gameplay implications.

Will test this as soon as I can…

[Jackmck]

Subs are quite powerful in this game- especially in the critical first few years of the war. I would be very careful about boosting their ability even more- this will hurt the Allies a lot.
I think the game has it about right- subs are limited with battery life when diving so multiple attacks should drive down supply at least from destroyers, PTs and aircraft. There should be no limit on the number of attacks- submarines on the surface could certainly be attacked by battleships and cruisers. They wouldn't do much damage in attacking a submerged sub but would at least keep it from surfacing for some time.

If there are changes to increase the ability of subs, here are some ideas for offsets:
I'd like to see the ability to upgrade ports to defend against sub attacks- much the same way as anti air upgrades. This is historical- major ports used minefields, nets and other obstacles and several subs were sunk with them.
Finally, I'd also like to see S&I apply in an enhanced fashion against subs- much as it was historically. Greater percentage that a sub would be detected with increasing levels of S&I.

[Elessar2]

The issue isn't that subs are already powerful, and we want to turn them into 688's, but that subs typically operated alone, or yes as parts of wolfpacks, but often at a significant numerical disadvantage. But in the game a lone sub sailing into DD-infested waters will die in 2-3 turns, since it lacks its real-life counterpart's stealth and evasion capabilities (not talking about evading a single attack I mean being able to disengage).

Every single escort in a 500 mile radius simply didn't, at the first sign of submarine activity, come galloping in to do constant blanket depth charge attacks over a period of many days because it was a piece of cake to find their target(s) again and again and again. A sub or a wolfpack would typically endure several hour's worth of an attack, sure, but eventually would evade their attacker (if they didn't get nailed first of course), who no longer really had the capability of finding it again. The sub would slink off submerged, likely spend several days repairing damage, then rise and take up station again. Or go back to port if the damage was too severe. It's actually trying to return to port which is often so frustrating. One issue is the relatively small World map we have, with subs simply not being able to get lost in the vast sea.

If imbalances are then found all we need are the modding tools to rebalance things. All I am ultimately asking for, as a scenario designer.

Further testing got me 3 more retreats, but this was during dozens of attacks by DDs so the odds with the kludge I tried don't look good. While I did get 2 which retreated from DD attacks, I also got 2 which ran from carrier bombings, which were much less frequent. Never retreated after I got the klaxon sound effect, note-the code obviously overrides the retreat subroutine with the dive subroutine. [Did have to laugh out loud when a sub retreated right into a friendly port tho...]

[AshFall]

I do agree that Subs need some help in these games, especially late game.

The retreat mechanic being what it is (I.e. not kicking in until predicted losses takes it below 50%, and also being quite unreliable in how/where/when it retreats) I'd suggest this;

1. Remove the supply loss on anything but Cruising, hunting and attacking.
2. Add a submarine suprise attack bonus
3. Test a level of "loss evasion" as suggested by Hubert early in the thread. Set at a good chance as a base and increasing slightly more than the ASW reduction of it per level, incentivizing Germany to actually research subs actively. Perhaps Hubert could explain more exactly how the evade mechanic works? Is it a % chance per strength point loss inflicted on the sub (so an individual % per str point) or is it always cancelling the attack damage altogether?

Someone who is better than I am at the submarine aspect of the war might be able to tell us more about this, but my impression is that Germany de-prioritized research and development of submarines quite heavily after 1941/42. "In reality" they never reached the highest lvl of submarine tech theoretically available in the game, and the allies ASW research outpaced them handily.

A situation in game where Germany keeps a focus on subs and keeps pace, or even outpaces, allies ASW tech should look significantly different then.

[CaesarAug]

I’ve been testing sub retreat, having eliminated 1 supply point consumption on sub defence… It looks like I am now more in favour of the sub dive mechanism (notwithstanding its hard-coded maximum 2-hex range) and eliminating retreat for subs (as per game-default).

The retreat mechanism is good but has certain criteria for activation which I’m not entirely convinced works for subs, especially in tandem with the dive mechanism.

And also, having likewise changed my view of sub naval defence set to 0, I am now more in favour of having a naval defence rating for subs (i.e., half the naval attack value) upgradeable 0.5 per level through Advanced Submarine Research.

Test: Subs get 4 levels of Advanced Submarine Research. Get a game-default 40% (or 50%?) dive chance (40%-80% or 50%-90%?). Thinking even of setting base dive chance at 60%, maxing out at 100%. This would mean that at the least, subs would still retain a minimum 20% dive chance if no Advanced Sub Research and were attacked with a maxed out 40% ASW unit. At best, subs would enjoy a maxed out 100% dive chance, with a minimum 60% dive chance if attacked by a maxed out 40% ASW unit. Units with ASW research get the standard 10% per max 4 levels. Subs get a 50% Hidden Attacker Readiness Bonus and a 0% Prepared Attack Readiness Bonus (as per Elessar2’s setting in his awesome War in the Pacific mod). Set game-start sub naval, carrier, transport attack to 6 (upgradeable by 1 per max 4 levels of Advanced Submarine Research) and set game-start sub naval defence to 3 (upgradeable 0.5 per max 4 levels of Advanced Submarine Research).

Not sure about sub naval evasion parameters. Set attack and defence naval evasion to 0 for this testing. Do not want to overdue it in favour of subs…

American subs start with great disadvantage due to the Mark 14 torpedo problems but eventually reach comparable sub research. Japanese subs start with a slight disadvantage but eventually outperform the rest due to the Lance torpedo 93. These are for historical flavour.

But so far testing seems fairly interesting and different with previous settings. Now subs still do not “retreat” but now enjoy a higher base dive chance to counter ASW, can “defend” themselves while under attack, will not consume a supply point if they dive (hard-coded in the game), or otherwise as long as they are defending. And can potentially cause damage to the attacker. This may tend to dissuade gang-up relentless attacks on subs. It’s a question of balancing out other factors such as naval ZoC and naval Action Points, etc.

Needs further testing, of course…

[Elessar2]

Excellent food for thought Caeseraaug. Looks like retreat isn't the panacea I had hoped. Did buff up sub's naval defense, and it did take its toll of the escorts somewhat. Evasion %'s look to be the likeliest temporary panacea, tho I am not crazy about said mechanism.

One annoying thing about the endless attacks is that they stretch out the turn unnecessarily.

I'd say AshFall that the Germans lost the radar war more than anything else. Note that they had the XXI almost ready to go when the war ended, but they were hampered by teething bugs and poor worksmanship, so in game terms they did reach L5, but only at the very end when maybe 1 sub counter could have been upgraded before Hitler blew his brains out.

[Zeckke]

sub are stupid

edit; making friends as always¡