Includes a standard deviation score in PBEM

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I think one should keep in mind the magnitude of reloads here. As said above I live in a very remote area and rarely finish a game without 2-3 disconnects/PBEM server errors. But 2-3 reloads, or let's be generous and say half a dozend, even when specifically used for cheating would absolutely not be noticeable over the course of an entire game. Some of those "miracle turns" alone must have taken many dozend attempts. A counter would of course not stop a clever and restrained cheater, but it would curb the worst excesses.
It might even eliminate some false positives, e.g. when I started with SCWW1 I was 100% convinced that something was fishy with some guys naval game until I figured out how scouting with silent subs worked. Some of my previous opponents probably had a similar feeling about my gameplay during WaW Barbarossa back in the day before spyfighters were nerfed, as they were simply not aware that I had vision range 5 or 6. A counter would have allayed suspicions in both cases.

Oh WWI and the stealthy U-boat waypoint stitching skill using the CTRL key...
Yeah someone questioned me about that with a allegation lol.
Got the same situation here...rural end of the road home base with a mountain zone exacerbated by climate change which plays havoc with our internet, especially in fall and winter.
I try to save quickly when the lights flicker and the blue hamster wheel goes spinning on the screen. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work...and I gotta reload an interrupted turn. I do mssg my opponent when that happens.

Even with multiple reloads because of internet connection issues, never got an email inquiry. Now, out of sportsmanship, I just wait a day to retry a turn...as repeated reloads give different Intel hits.

Reloading turns to get a specific combat result seems kind of far-fetched, as many multiple attempts would have to be done. How would that even work with combat and battles all over the place? Maybe an obsessed cheater would try that, but it's got be rare...or is it?

[Ktonos]

I don't really think that reloading for specific combat results is an issue. Maybe there's a player or two that go as far as this, but I believe mostly the problem lies elsewhere.

Most of the cheating goes about scouting enemy positions, and mostly naval ones. Or better, redoing a messy turn..
A player that throws himself in an ambush, ie his fleet is suddenly amidst the enemy one, and he is expecting that the opponent will annihilate his fleet on his turn. Reload. Do not move there. Or, a player commenced a large scale offensive against positions he perceived as weak, but now that he can see a few hexes more deep behind the initial enemy line, he sees the opponent has a second line of heavy tanks, ready to trash his forward elements. Reload. Change of plans.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I don't really think that reloading for specific combat results is an issue. Maybe there's a player or two that go as far as this, but I believe mostly the problem lies elsewhere.

Most of the cheating goes about scouting enemy positions, and mostly naval ones. Or better, redoing a messy turn..
A player that throws himself in an ambush, ie his fleet is suddenly amidst the enemy one, and he is expecting that the opponent will annihilate his fleet on his turn. Reload. Do not move there. Or, a player commenced a large scale offensive against positions he perceived as weak, but now that he can see a few hexes more deep behind the initial enemy line, he sees the opponent has a second line of heavy tanks, ready to trash his forward elements. Reload. Change of plans.

Ah ha I see now! Perfect explanation. So it's similar to when playing SP in any game where you just go back to a save because you didn't like the outcome.
Well this is illuminating.
A plague of burrowing worms and fire ants to people who do this to other folks.
Screw cheaters......

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Lets be real.

Might well play with reloads.
Because it's already happening.
What is there to say? I played 30+ games, never won. Then, well, reload like everybody else.

Terif cheated the entire SC-1, until we figured out "How he did it, in MIDDLE of a live game", TCP/IP

It's like talking about sin. Everybody does, but nobody talks about it or names it. Awakes the Devil.

These people talking about disconnects, or "I only reloaded a few times, not 6".
Gee, tell your wife that. Oh, I only cheated with 3 hotties, it meant nothing, I love you.
I don't cheat like the other guys, who cheat 10 times.
Tell that to the Taxman.
Oh, I paid ALL my taxes (yeah, all the small ones).
Then you didn't report the big hit, or hid behind some twisted ELO law.
Most the time, it doesn't matter, until the "all out, big attack". Call it Spying and Intelligence.

The players who made the ELO rules, are gone, they don't play.
All they did was reload thousands of times.
And say, "Oh gee, I hotseated that.". Really, you really tested odd stuff in 1943 from hotseat? Yeah, right.
I've never trusted Euros. They too smooth, with centuries of practice.

I don't trust people under the age of 40, with goofy facial hair either.
Devil wears a suit & tie.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Folks that say 'since they are doing it, so I should too' have a worse character flaw in my opinion. This kind of maladroit thinking is going to be the cause of the downfall of our civilization, one bit at a time. Post 9:11 America has become thus. Its okay to torture, right? The so-called 'bad guys do it..so lets even the playing field shall we. Throw away the moral compass, compassion, and fair play, right? 'They are doing it. We gotta do the same!
Sigh.....
Cheating is f%#^ing cheating.
No mechanism to punish them here it seems.
Trying that stuff at a high stakes poker game can earn you a free pass to sleep with the fishes. @(((((-(

[ThunderLizard11]

Cheating is f%#^ing cheating.
No mechanism to punish them here it seems.
Trying that stuff at a high stakes poker game can earn you a free pass to sleep with the fishes. @(((((-(

This discussion is almost getting comical. Guys, this is a videogame for fun not a real world combat. Suggest devs look into some of the suggestions here as a next step.

Reminds me of Casablanca:

Rick : How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault : I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier : Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault : [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Cheating is f%#^ing cheating.
No mechanism to punish them here it seems.
Trying that stuff at a high stakes poker game can earn you a free pass to sleep with the fishes. @(((((-(

This discussion is almost getting comical. Guys, this is a videogame for fun not a real world combat. Suggest devs look into some of the suggestions here as a next step.

Reminds me of Casablanca:

Rick : How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault : I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier : Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault : [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.

Touche'

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Remember gentlemen, "There is no gambling in SC-WaW (or Bushwood)", save that for the casinos.
Actually, stick to the stock market, better bet.

"Round up the usual suspects" ---best line from Casablanca

If you want wins, play me. Careful, I can sting you once in awhile.

[Hubert Cater]

For those playing WaW on Steam, and considering the context of this thread, we believe you'll like the upcoming changes to PBEM++ ideally for the next patch.

It would be great to have this tested, e.g. for those that would like to play a few multiplayer matches this way... more details found here:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p5116783

[archmache]

There does need to be added a reload counter and download counter 100%.

I only play against a select player base since they don't cheat, but some certainly do - I've seen people have hits on ships on ports with 10% chance happen like 5 times in a row (did you see the Fafnir vs Dudeman on youtube - yeah he got about 6 port snipes with his ships. Talk about flagrant!).

Or just make the new SC game require internet connection. Every input goes to the server, like an FPS. Skip matrix cutting a % fo the paycheck. Big surveillance energy, but at least the game is fair.

[ThunderLizard11]

There does need to be added a reload counter and download counter 100%.

I only play against a select player base since they don't cheat, but some certainly do - I've seen people have hits on ships on ports with 10% chance happen like 5 times in a row (did you see the Fafnir vs Dudeman on youtube - yeah he got about 6 port snipes with his ships. Talk about flagrant!).

Or just make the new SC game require internet connection. Every input goes to the server, like an FPS. Skip matrix cutting a % fo the paycheck. Big surveillance energy, but at least the game is fair.

Interesting - had a similar experience. Almost thought FOW was off.

[Bavre]

But keep in mind that only gets the blatant (and stupid) cheaters.
Things like like only one additional reload to scout before the big naval battle in the pacific will not (and can not) be affected by this.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The cheating mechanism of SC-1, took awhile for me to figure out.
The cheating mechanism of SC-WaW, also took me awhile. (about 40+ losses in ELO)

What is the definition of cheating? Because if you say more than once, then everyone here is a sinner. Which I've known that, since I was 5 years old.

I'm the perfect person to let you know. I've played 180+ documented games over. When I first stared playing, it was only because of The Holidays. Then later, media-Flu. I haven't played any video, computer, etc. games in a decade. The media-Flu kept me here. I didn't even care about ELO. I didn't even know what ELO or SC-WaE was. Never played it. My record was 65% W/L before playing any ELO, nor SC-WaE players.

After starting ELO, my record was awful. I dropped from 65% win rate, to about 5%.

Then, I figured it out. Mostly, it was North Africa. Why is it, these turns returned to me, are absolutely, perfect. Dudes go thru me like butter (either side). It's like watching a baseball game, 2-outs, bottom of the 9th. Then bam! Perfect combat rolls, ever. Then, eveyr d-mn turn in Russia, is returned. 1ever gets bad rolls to start a turn, in the most important sector of the game. Next, how about these crazy attacks from SeaLion. These ELO/SC-WaE guys who no way had Maritime Bombers to scout, finding perfect moves. Have you ever seen a failed SeaLion? I"ve played 180+ games, never seen it. How about 30+ attacks on Stalingrad, and every d-mn time, that last kill, just makes it.

Come on man. I didn't even bother to bring up Naval movement, that's a joke. These "Top ELO" never make a bad move there.

Here's my favorite. These "Top ELO players on Diplo". I had some joker get 3 hits in row on DEI, WHILE I had maximum the other way. Odds of that are 5% or something, each roll. Diplo Spain too. When I mean hits, I don't mean 5% gain, I mean the super-duper hits that convert. How about the clowns they NEVER hit your AA-guns. Not once? Not once the whole game? I'm moving them every turn, OUTTA spotting range, that they can fly past with a scout Bomber, or Maritime.

Then, look at my record. It started to improve, very well, anyone notice?

I posted this long, long time ago. Blah-blah email warning. Blah-blah this. Blah-blah that.

Then suddenly, vague comments comeout. "Oh, my internet isn't good, I live in a pond with Kermit the Frog". Yeah, right. It's a turn base game. It doesn't crash in the middle of the turn (rarely, if you have everything turned off) on computer. The whole planet has Skynet Elon Musk internet. Even if it did crash, the turns are rolling in perfect. Like Handel's Messiah Symphony.

The cheaters are good, and they're many. They'll give you an occasional garrison transport or someting unimportant. I remember when I actually felt guilty on a legit crash. But if you play ELO and want to win, might as well reload much as possible.

Notice I haven't named any names? I know who does and doesn't with high level of confidence.

Frankly, I don't care. Already mentioned it 2+ years ago.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

But keep in mind that only gets the blatant (and stupid) cheaters.
Things like like only one additional reload to scout before the big naval battle in the pacific will not (and can not) be affected by this.

Yes, this is a great point. Theres more than Diplo "mega hits" back, to back, to back. There's more than combat rolls. There's more than perfect Transport Kamikazes. There's more than battles themselves. Blatant cheaters are easy to figure out. Then there's the careful cheaters. Just sniffing you out every turn. Then bam, like someone spiking your drink. You're roofied.

1-turn is all it takes in a close match. Test the Air Intercepts. Juicy Paratroop drop. Why do you think the top players ELO all love to play Axis? Momentum is in their court. They dissection.

The biggest scam, are these dudes invading Pearl Harbor. I put half the Royal Navy around the joint, double American AA-guns instead of Planes. AND you know the attack is gonna happen. The Japs haven't spent any money in China, some them transports are loaded for the sleeping bear. I mean, it's possible for them to take Honolulu, because they do. But how to they know whether to go backside or not.

And don't give me the "don't play reloaders" sermon. How am I suppose to know, unless I play few games against someone. A proper game takes 5 weeks to play. Maybe they are better. Maybe they got lucky.

In any sports, life, business, it only takes 1 trick. Ask the losers of Midway. Ask walls of Jericho. Ask Premiere Soccer final. Golf match. Lance Armstrong. Maria Sharapova.

Reloading is like steroids in sports. If you want to compete, you must do.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Reading about the "Beta Branch".

It doesn't solve the problem.
It only helps an honest player, who doesn't reconnect.
(which isn't needed, just reconnect, after-manual-save-attempt which failed)
(It does help player's who game crashes. But they can be prevented by closing oodles of other running services)

[Isnogud]

The game should save localy after every move/combat. If a reload happens the game should go back to the last localy saved state. Not sure if something like that can be implemented but maybe Hubert can check.

[BillRunacre]

The game should save localy after every move/combat. If a reload happens the game should go back to the last localy saved state. Not sure if something like that can be implemented but maybe Hubert can check.

The beta version that we released last week does save periodically, so anyone trying to do something gamey may well find that crashing/closing the game and then reloading the turn is pointless because the save has already happened and they cannot undo the action.

In terms of it saving after every move/combat, we would be interested to hear how you get on with the beta version in terms of its saving time, given that such a thing does eat up a little time.

[Jackmck]

Honestly, I haven't seen conclusive indications of cheating. I've played against very good players, and the games I lost were done fairly. My recommendation for those who feel otherwise is to find a different opponent. There are many good players out there who don't have time to cheat.

I do like the beta version- not because of cheating but because I have had to redo my turn occasionally due to a disconnection- often with worse results. An automatic save periodically would be beneficial.

Jack

[ThunderLizard11]

Honestly, I haven't seen conclusive indications of cheating. I've played against very good players, and the games I lost were done fairly. My recommendation for those who feel otherwise is to find a different opponent. There are many good players out there who don't have time to cheat.

I do like the beta version- not because of cheating but because I have had to redo my turn occasionally due to a disconnection- often with worse results. An automatic save periodically would be beneficial.

Jack

That's the point people are making. If there's no reloads value will be zero so no issue, right? Too frequent turn saves can becoming annoying as well.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

If there's not a reload problem, then why is there a Beta?

Then why the two orders?
Colonel?

Colonel, I have just one more question before I call Airman O'Malley and Airman Perez.
If you gave an order that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders are always followed,
then why would he be in danger, why would it be necessary to transfer him off the base?

The question was already asked (and answered) roughly two years ago.