Gamey Moves

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

NOT gamey = Everyone cries about some silly strength 5 Italian Destroyer leaving the MedFront when it can be easily blocked on turn 2, this is NOT gamey.

NOT gamey = Japanese experience mining is NOT gamey. What's gamey, in the Chinese leaving cities baiting Japs into USA trigger points.

NOT gamey = German paratroops on forced march to drop next turn. There's only 2-units

Here's what is really gamey:

1) Suicide Allied transports to snag *key points. Okay, if that's fair, then the Allies should lose HUGE morale points for deaths of Allied troops, especially American people. Axis are forced to retreat the entire Navies at time to cover *key point, thus there's not cool naval battles.

*** this includes all the sneaky sh-t thru Denmark just to snag ports.

2) The entire pre-Pearl Harbor for both sides. Americans move transports into Pearl Harbor at the very last turn. It's a stupid timing thing. Japanese actually launching 5+ LR transports. That's gamey. One turn changes the gamey.

3) Russians with AA level 3. This is a joke. Luftwaffe because worthless. No way the Reds had that kind of equipment and massive production of it.

4) Diplomacy for Allies ruins the game. Any Diplo into DEI, Majors,

5) Germans/Italians leaving North Africa. Gamey

6) Germans bypass-ing Netherlands to later manipulate Morale bonus on readiness. The entire national morale manipulation is gamey. Worried about a stupid Italian Destoryer, when manipulating taking minor worthless locations to surrender and saving them for *key times in game.

7) Game is the Axis weather rolls in China and Southern Russia October, November. It's the entire game. Even France. Played recent game, where France had Global Warming, not one turn of Ice. I lost France in Feb 1940. What a joke.

8) Yes, weather in China. The Jap early weataher turns is everything. Clear weather and the South is cleared. Games with 6 months of weather, the Japs might as well surrender.

9) REALLY GAMEY: Any bull-shit with the French in North Africa before the FALL. Not the ships, the clever move on Western Libya is a game changer.

10) Plenty more. and not even talking reloads. I played one player I'll keep nameless, my f-ing subs (had 5 of them raiding) and I don't get 1 frickin' dive in a turn. The reloads is like the JFK conspiracy. Nobody will ever believe your official account. I chase 1 sorry ass sub for 2 turns with entire Royal Navy. The dice rolls are absolute critical. NOBODY ever gets bad rolls on the *key big battles.

[havoc1371]

NOT gamey = Everyone cries about some silly strength 5 Italian Destroyer leaving the MedFront when it can be easily blocked on turn 2, this is NOT gamey.

NOT gamey = Japanese experience mining is NOT gamey. What's gamey, in the Chinese leaving cities baiting Japs into USA trigger points.

NOT gamey = German paratroops on forced march to drop next turn. There's only 2-units

Here's what is really gamey:

1) Suicide Allied transports to snag *key points. Okay, if that's fair, then the Allies should lose HUGE morale points for deaths of Allied troops, especially American people. Axis are forced to retreat the entire Navies at time to cover *key point, thus there's not cool naval battles.

*** this includes all the sneaky sh-t thru Denmark just to snag ports.

2) The entire pre-Pearl Harbor for both sides. Americans move transports into Pearl Harbor at the very last turn. It's a stupid timing thing. Japanese actually launching 5+ LR transports. That's gamey. One turn changes the gamey.

3) Russians with AA level 3. This is a joke. Luftwaffe because worthless. No way the Reds had that kind of equipment and massive production of it.

4) Diplomacy for Allies ruins the game. Any Diplo into DEI, Majors,

5) Germans/Italians leaving North Africa. Gamey

6) Germans bypass-ing Netherlands to later manipulate Morale bonus on readiness. The entire national morale manipulation is gamey. Worried about a stupid Italian Destoryer, when manipulating taking minor worthless locations to surrender and saving them for *key times in game.

7) Game is the Axis weather rolls in China and Southern Russia October, November. It's the entire game. Even France. Played recent game, where France had Global Warming, not one turn of Ice. I lost France in Feb 1940. What a joke.

8) Yes, weather in China. The Jap early weataher turns is everything. Clear weather and the South is cleared. Games with 6 months of weather, the Japs might as well surrender.

9) REALLY GAMEY: Any bull-shit with the French in North Africa before the FALL. Not the ships, the clever move on Western Libya is a game changer.

10) Plenty more. and not even talking reloads. I played one player I'll keep nameless, my f-ing subs (had 5 of them raiding) and I don't get 1 frickin' dive in a turn. The reloads is like the JFK conspiracy. Nobody will ever believe your official account. I chase 1 sorry ass sub for 2 turns with entire Royal Navy. The dice rolls are absolute critical. NOBODY ever gets bad rolls on the *key big battles.

Agree with your "not gamey". Para's extended move and setting to drop is within the norms of the game. You pay a penalty in readiness for the extended move. Never gave one thought about the It DD moving; has no real bearing on the game. Not sure what you mean about experience mining.

1) If referring to making an extended move with an AVL to invade, I agree. They should either take away the ability to "force march" or not allow AVL's that made an extended move to invade.
2) Can't do much about it. The Americans did have all the intelligence they needed that Japan was planning to attack, but they ignored it or acted stupidly. The US player doesn't know for sure when the Japanese will attack, so they risk lowering their readiness by sending units to Hawaii. Plus, I've never had a problem finishing off the US fleet at Hawaii, no matter how many AA's they move in.
3) Are you talking AA units? Why? Never found it to be an issue. Always worked around it by destroying the AA or striking where it isn't; not like the Russians have a lot of them.
4) Diplomacy does (IMO) detract from playing the game along historical lines, but is part of the game, and both sides can do it. But I generally don't use it much unless playing someone who does it a lot.
5) Axis abandoning Africa? I agree that Mussolini wouldn't have, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it gamey. Hitler considered it a side show and only got involved because of Italian blundering.
6) Not sure what bonus you get from not invading Netherlands, but Germany did just that in WW1 and a player can chose who they declare war on or not.
7) Not a fan of the totally random weather either, and that each side doesn't experience the same weather. Many a game has been trashed by having horrible Axis weather in Russia from Aug 41 through Jun 42.
8) Weather in China has never been an issue for me as the Axis. I've never really given it much thought. Even my worst games in China, I'm able to drive them back into the interior.
9) Not sure what BS with French in North Africa you mean, unless you've played someone who moves Troops into Tunisia to invade Libya when Italy DoW's. I think using the French fleet to suicide against the Italians is gamey, but I don't know what they could do to fix that. Abandoning French colonies to bring those troops to France has penalties on morale.
10) This is the game system and its terrible "odds" calculations, not the action of another player. But I do agree and have experienced the lack of diving, also enemy subs that just keep diving with every attack. The battle odds predictions on the ground are worse than a guess, being wrong almost every time.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

@havoc1371 --- Yep, you got it.

If I read one more comment about Italian Ship strength-5, leaving the MedFront, I don't think I can go on in life.
Italians get waxed in this game.
Rome's military & economy glory days are 2000 years ago.
The country that's not a country within the country is the changer, since they were visited by Paul.

Italians best help is being hit takers in Russia or North Africa.
They're gone by June 1943 at latest against any real opponents.

[petedalby]

It's an engrossing game with lots of variables. But it's still a game. Therefore surely everything is gamey?

The Japanese had no realistic way of invading Hawaii but they can in the game.

Malta never fell historically but it can be taken out in 2 turns.

I prefer to agree what is ruled in or out before I start.

Quite agree on the odds predictor. Sometimes spot on - often way out. No rhyme or reason to it. Same with subs diving.

You can't take it too seriously. Roll with the punches.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Losing my mind, more rain. WTF, October 1942, November 1942, December, etc......then the Russians always get the April weather all clear, so I had to retreat in March, else I got blasted. Luftwaffe is dealing with Russian AA-3. This not good and I'm playing Taifun.

[Platoonist]

You can't take it too seriously. Roll with the punches.

Yup. Even the super intricate counter-shuffling games have their exploits and loopholes. Sometimes the more you try to fix it the worse it gets.

All's fair in love and wargames.

[gigiduru]

NOT gamey = Everyone cries about some silly strength 5 Italian Destroyer leaving the MedFront when it can be easily blocked on turn 2, this is NOT gamey.

NOT gamey = Japanese experience mining is NOT gamey. What's gamey, in the Chinese leaving cities baiting Japs into USA trigger points.

NOT gamey = German paratroops on forced march to drop next turn. There's only 2-units

Here's what is really gamey:

1) Suicide Allied transports to snag *key points. Okay, if that's fair, then the Allies should lose HUGE morale points for deaths of Allied troops, especially American people. Axis are forced to retreat the entire Navies at time to cover *key point, thus there's not cool naval battles.

*** this includes all the sneaky sh-t thru Denmark just to snag ports.

2) The entire pre-Pearl Harbor for both sides. Americans move transports into Pearl Harbor at the very last turn. It's a stupid timing thing. Japanese actually launching 5+ LR transports. That's gamey. One turn changes the gamey.

3) Russians with AA level 3. This is a joke. Luftwaffe because worthless. No way the Reds had that kind of equipment and massive production of it.

4) Diplomacy for Allies ruins the game. Any Diplo into DEI, Majors,

5) Germans/Italians leaving North Africa. Gamey

6) Germans bypass-ing Netherlands to later manipulate Morale bonus on readiness. The entire national morale manipulation is gamey. Worried about a stupid Italian Destoryer, when manipulating taking minor worthless locations to surrender and saving them for *key times in game.

7) Game is the Axis weather rolls in China and Southern Russia October, November. It's the entire game. Even France. Played recent game, where France had Global Warming, not one turn of Ice. I lost France in Feb 1940. What a joke.

8) Yes, weather in China. The Jap early weataher turns is everything. Clear weather and the South is cleared. Games with 6 months of weather, the Japs might as well surrender.

9) REALLY GAMEY: Any bull-shit with the French in North Africa before the FALL. Not the ships, the clever move on Western Libya is a game changer.

10) Plenty more. and not even talking reloads. I played one player I'll keep nameless, my f-ing subs (had 5 of them raiding) and I don't get 1 frickin' dive in a turn. The reloads is like the JFK conspiracy. Nobody will ever believe your official account. I chase 1 sorry ass sub for 2 turns with entire Royal Navy. The dice rolls are absolute critical. NOBODY ever gets bad rolls on the *key big battles.

Lets agree to disagree but you do make some very pertinent points.

a.Exp farming - both sides can do it so i don't find it gamey aswell. The problem people see with it is that Axis has more time to do it since you get to control them from turn 1.
b.Italian ships leaving the med - i think a HR could solve this and also good game mechanics. Only italian subs should be able to leave the med and the navy can leave the med after they conquer either Egypt or Gibraltar.
c.Paratroopers double moving then paradropping - imo it's a bit gamey - both sides can use it but tbh only Axis benefits from it massivly in the opening stages of Barbarossa. Could be resolved with changing how it works.

Now to the gamay points
1. Yeah i hate this mechanic with all my heart. Bullshit 1 ship suicide invasions just so you are forced to pull 3 units to take care of it. Allied players would say that they are only 'raiding' but lets be honest - it's bullshit and 100% agree with you. In my allies game i only try to do proper invasions with 3+ AVL backed up by massive navy and airforce.
2. I never played WaW vanilla in PBEM so i don't know the mechanics - but it feels gamey
3. All the research in WaW/WiE vanilla is bullshit and gamey. Double chitting is bullshit and gamey - i hate it because it can create unreasonable situations and the game is over in 1941.
4. 100% agreed.
5. Leaving only 2 garrisons is gamey. Not sending the germans to reinforce the italians is a calculated risk.
6. HR to force Axis to declare on BeNeLux all on the same turn.
7/8. 100% Agree - WaW/WiE vanilla has a lot of bad mechanics.
9. I think you are reffering to 2 things - a.French ships suiciding to kill some italians and b.French having shipped troops to southern Tunis in order to launch an offensive and take Western Lybia from the Italians. For a. - yeah it feels a little bit gamey and considering that Italy doesn't have too much MPP it's hard to counter. b. Same as a. but you could send few troops there to prevent it's capture.
10. Players that cheat are players that cheat. Don't know what you can do to them and sometimes luck could look like cheating.

And the answer to all your problems is simple - STOP PLAYING Vanilla WaW/WiE. Go play the TRP mod. A lot of the problems you've written about do not exist in TRP. And some that do are constantly being patched out by the creator.
Italy gets more income so it can better prepare for french/uk shenanigans. Garrisons are more tought and are actually capable of repelling minor attacks. The map is so much bigger. Diplomacy is insignificant and in most games you have ZERO minors joining either side. No more double chitting research so you'll have a more realistic war progression - NO MORE LVL 5 STrategic Bombers in 1942 . Also no more double hits for strategic flying piece of shit rats.

Plus many other improvements. Sure there are some changes i do not agree with it but overall there are more interesting things then not.

[Duedman]

You can have 3 Paras no? Them forcemarching and then preparing is super unrealistic and therefore gamey. Alhtough I use it a lot in WiE. I would not mind a nerf on this.

Level 3 AA is off the chart. Someone (I think El Condoro) said, that for rounding reasons the attack values vs aircraft raise from 3 to 5 when upgraded to lvl3.
Level 2 AA barely scratched the painr. Level 3 overshot the target I think.

Diplo on DEI is gamey. Houserule

Axis leaving NA.. well... if Allies immediatly kill the ports on Italy's entrance (which they usually do).... then leaving beforehand is the only reasonable choice. But there should be NO Afrika Korps at Trieste in that case (!!).

Pushover minors that give bonusses are bad. The bonus was nerfed at least.
If minors (like Switzerland) would not start with 0 supply units when attacked but instead in reasonable combat condition then collecting them would at least take some effort.
I see the need for 0 supply starter units for BeNeLux. But at least from 1941 onwards there should be no "surprise" attacks anymore.

Suicide transports hard to adjust. Higher build limit on garrisons plus a few freebies might help.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

I've noticed, when I win, nothing is said.
When I lose, it's gamey.

What's with that?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

**** HOSTING 2 new games ****

1 of each flavor

password = elvis

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Unreal.
Germans start with Tanks 1.
I obviously put in Spying & Intelligence (2-chits), and Tanks soon as I get Money from Poland & first couple of turns.

How is this possible?

[Elessar2]

I'd make it so that you have to do at least 1 point of damage to gain any experience from any attack.

[petedalby]

How is this possible?

Can't see the date. But if US prioritises Spying & Tanks there's the random break through factor which can accelerate things.

Looks like you're up against it.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Germans Tanks start game = 1
USA Tanks = 0

In very early 1943.

Germans Tanks =3 w/ 50% left for 4
USA Tanks = 4
Certainly wasn't due to my lack of investment in Tanks nor S&I.

Wish I had some luck. Head to the casino.
I get my ass kicked in this game.
Only 1-game outta 200+ did I get crazy tech. Germans had Level 3 for Barby against Russia level-1 infantry.
Was a joke. Mowed them over.

[Duedman]

US S&I research speed up does not get cancelled out by Axis S&I until US is in the war.
Breakthroughs in US S&I and or tank tech make lvl4 US tanks possible in early 1943 at least in WiE.
Teching US S&I before they enter the war is super powerful ....and kinda gamey.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Yeah, it's a good move.
Extreme Allied surprise strategies work.
Didn't really matter, I was already toast.
Those Tanks could be level negative (-4), made of cardboard, Germans got waxed.
I've been playing top players, getting tossed around.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

More gamey crap, it all hinges off Tripoli.

Once Tripoli is taken in Spring 1940 by the French and couple British or even Indian worthless pieces, the Allies are home free in the Med. No need to defend Egypt. No need to take Tunisia. Just need that scout Maritime Bomber and enough coverage for the swarm of US Marines. The US Marines don't even need air support nor HQ, their supply is plenty to get a port in 1 or 2 turns. The speed accelerates the game by 6 or more months.

Royal Navy doesn't need to bother with upgrading Navy, let alone be in the MedFront.

The Triple team on German needs banned. The Marines can just debark over & over again and just smash Axis wherever they want.

USA does nothing in the Pacific, except to get the DEI port, or hit the Hiroshima port. That stops the Japs on MMPs.

The counter to this move, is for the Japanese to become a roaming pack of Jap Marines

[Taifun]

I obviously put in Spying & Intelligence (2-chits), and Tanks soon as I get Money from Poland & first couple of turns.

Well you didn't:

Germany R.png (3.31 MiB) Viewed 538 times

You were slow investing because you spent money buying artillery.

[Taifun]

USA does nothing in the Pacific, except to get the DEI port, or hit the Hiroshima port.

The USA went all in the Pacific and you lost the Gilberts, the Marshalls, the Marianas, Truk, Iwo Jima, the Palaus, Portuguese Timor and Java in 5 months

[Taifun]

I get my ass kicked in this game.
Only 1-game outta 200+ did I get crazy tech. Germans had Level 3 for Barby against Russia level-1 infantry.
Was a joke. Mowed them over.

Elvis you remind me of my Spanish government. Always complaining when things don't go as expected and blaming everybody, EXCUSES, instead of assuming your errors and mistakes. Stop complaining about the game, the weather, the Diplo, the odds, the AA, the orbit of the moon...

You spent 2 years attacking a forgotten Chinese settlement with your Japanese naval bombers, fighters and carriers to increase their efficiency. GAMEY?? You can't expect to win games against veteran players when you play 4 games at a time, with nil real strategy.

In our game you got 4 German research progress hits having level 4 fighters by June 1943 a real game changer... As soon as I can I will make public all the crazy tech you received in our game...