Better way to handle oil

[ThunderLizard11]

Oil now is simply more MPPs. Would like to see something more specific like in WarPlan where oil is needed to keep armor/planes and ships moving. Seems to be a missing strategic element as Japan in particular was motivated by oil to kick-off full-fledged WW2. Thoughts?

[Platoonist]

It's always been my experience when playing World in Flames with the optional oil rules is that it made life a lot more difficult and complex for the Axis players. Which it should. Especially for nations like Italy with no domestic sources that basically have to beg and borrow from their already oil strapped allies

[Chernobyl]

Not a fan of separating resources because a simple MPP system is one of the key design elements. I think the game generally does a good job with it.

I think if possible it would be nice to have a couple more "worth double to X" convoys e.g. DEI oil could be reduced but "worth double to Japan". Probably not possible but an overland convoy where Romania's oil is worth double to Germany. These sorts of tweaks would make oil partially more "realistic" (USA had plenty of oil but Axis countries didn't).

[Elessar2]

Agreed with OP. Aside from unlimited ship movement, the Axis can buy out all mech/tank units (minor allies too) and rampage to their heart's content, as in their ratio vs. regular infantry can be seriously skewed. But we'll only see this for the next generation in the series. [Hopefully]

[Argothair]

Both sides raise important points. We're already tracking MPPs, unit morale, national morale, supply, leadership, mobilization %, entrenchment, readiness, and force pool limits, so the game really doesn't need another stat to track in the form of oil reserves. That said, it's not realistic to allow the Axis to mechanize half their units if the Allies are bombing Romania and the Allies have held onto Egypt and Baku.

The convoy suggestion is interesting, but I don't think the game supports overland convoys, and any sea route would be awkward; Germany doesn't have a port on the Mediterranean by default, so where is Romania going to ship the oil to? I'm also not sure if a neutral Turkey would allow a convoy to pass.

A decision event similar to the one where the US decides whether to send supplies to the USSR via Persia (doubling the resources if they arrive safely) is similarly awkward because Romania is already a German minor. So what is the decision there -- would you like to send resources from Germany to Germany, doubling them in the process? This could just as easily be a passive event, where gaining access to oil fields automatically increases Germany's income. You could put up a text announcement saying that the income is gained when you gain access to an oil field, and lost when you lose access to an oil field. Then the question becomes which oil fields do you want to trigger that for. All of them? The five or six that Germany is most likely to conquer or acquire through diplomacy? Does Germany actually need more income, or should their base income be reduced so that they have to get some of the oil bonuses just to maintain parity?

Or, maybe income is the wrong lever to be yanking on. Maybe Germany should be able to expand its force pool by gaining access to oil -- perhaps they should get some decision events when they gain access to new oil fields asking them if they want to use the oil on tanks, ships, planes, or just pump the oil into the general economy for cash. If you choose, e.g., tanks then you get access to a new tank unit (which you have to pay for at a slightly discounted price) that would not otherwise be on your unit list. I'm not sure if there's a way to make this work well with the soft build limits option; my understanding is that with the soft build limits, if you get a free unit then it still makes your remaining tanks more expensive to build. I don't know if there's a good workaround for that.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Just a note...the game does support overland convoys. We have them in SC-WW1 and SC-ACW. So they could be layed out here...like from Rumania to Germany for example.
Not saying yay or nay to the idea for SC-WaW. Just pointing out the existing game engine would make it possible to incorporate them.

[thisisnudge]

We could argue that Food, Manpower, and Metals are represented in or by MPP.

However, I've always considered the lack of an "oil crisis" to be the weakest point of this series.

No oil, no offensives. Once you read up on the German (and Italian and Japanese) oil crises early in the world, you'll understand better why oil is not about production per see but rather maintenance costs and requirements. Without an oil supply, your flashy Tiger II and whatnot will simply attack less or not move, which is what happened to the Axis.

The situation in this series is so severe that, as the Axis you can ignore Romania, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Indonesia, and Malaysia and still win without much problem.

That is highly ahistorical. I am okay with it in the same way I didn't care about in Panzer General (and alike), but once you step into the realm of grand strategy, it becomes slowly an issue.

[Argothair]

Just a note...the game does support overland convoys. We have them in SC-WW1 and SC-ACW. So they could be layed out here...like from Rumania to Germany for example.
Not saying yay or nay to the idea for SC-WaW. Just pointing out the existing game engine would make it possible to incorporate them.

Can you teach me how to add an overland convoy to a custom map in this game? I hear you that it exists in other games in the same series, but I am not seeing the option to do so in this particular game. I think if we could get an overland convoy, then that would be an ideal solution -- just increase the value of the Rumanian oil (in general) but then transfer much of the value to a convoy, so that interfering with the supply route will damage Germany's economy.

[Argothair]

We could argue that Food, Manpower, and Metals are represented in or by MPP.

However, I've always considered the lack of an "oil crisis" to be the weakest point of this series.

No oil, no offensives. Once you read up on the German (and Italian and Japanese) oil crises early in the world, you'll understand better why oil is not about production per see but rather maintenance costs and requirements. Without an oil supply, your flashy Tiger II and whatnot will simply attack less or not move, which is what happened to the Axis.

The situation in this series is so severe that, as the Axis you can ignore Romania, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Indonesia, and Malaysia and still win without much problem.

That is highly ahistorical. I am okay with it in the same way I didn't care about in Panzer General (and alike), but once you step into the realm of grand strategy, it becomes slowly an issue.

I mean, I strongly agree with you as a matter of history, I'm just not sure how much I care as a gamer. If you're going to separate out oil from the other resources, then it's hard to see why metal, food, and maybe even total manpower or total number of engineers shouldn't also be dealt with separately. If you build too many infantry units, then it should damage your economy because there is nobody left to work in your farms and factories. If you are constantly repairing your tanks and planes and ships, then maybe you don't have enough skilled engineers to do all the repairs properly. If you lose access to Sweden and Turkey and Spain, then you have a metals shortage; if you lose access to Belgium and Poland and Ukraine then you have a food shortage. Where does it end? How complex does the economy have to be before it offers an acceptable level of accuracy?

Another problem is that there is no mechanic in the game that limits or rations your movement abilities or your ability to make attacks; that would have to be programmed in from scratch, and it would seriously unbalance the game until a lot more playtesting was done. Right, like in the board game Unconditional Surrender, you have to pay $1 (out of a monthly budget of roughly $40) to activate each unit for movement and attack. You might have 25 units on the front line, so if you are spending $20 on building and replacing your units and conducting diplomacy, then you will have to pick some of your units that will just rest for the turn and not take any actions. That's an interesting tradeoff that's built right into the core of the game. By contrast, in SC WWII:WaW, you are free to move all of your units as often as you like at zero cost -- the only downside to moving and attacking with units is that they lose some entrenchment bonuses, and possibly a little bit of morale; it does not currently affect your economy in any way. There's the barest nod to the logistics of attacking in the way artillery units sometimes store up surplus 'shells' over time so that they can eventually fire 3 shells in the same turn, but mostly you just attack whenever you feel like it. It's not just that you don't need oil to attack -- you don't need *any* resources to attack; that's just not part of the game right now.

Should it be? Perhaps, but it require a fairly radical rewrite to the game's core design, in my opinion.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Just a note...the game does support overland convoys. We have them in SC-WW1 and SC-ACW. So they could be layed out here...like from Rumania to Germany for example.
Not saying yay or nay to the idea for SC-WaW. Just pointing out the existing game engine would make it possible to incorporate them.

Can you teach me how to add an overland convoy to a custom map in this game? I hear you that it exists in other games in the same series, but I am not seeing the option to do so in this particular game. I think if we could get an overland convoy, then that would be an ideal solution -- just increase the value of the Rumanian oil (in general) but then transfer much of the value to a convoy, so that interfering with the supply route will damage Germany's economy.

I would PM one of the devs and\or pose the question on the Modding sub-forum here. I'm not a modder but there are others around that would have the answer.
Another good place would be to ask on the SC-WW1 MOD sub-forum. MdSmall created land convoys in the Icarus Mod for that game which I presented on YT. He definitely knows the answer and is an expert with this kind of work.

[BillRunacre]

Overland convoys work in the same way as sea ones, except they have to start and stop at a land resource, ideally the capital as that generally makes the most sense.

With waypoints on land between the sender's and receiver's capital.

[Argothair]

Unfortunately, my game does not agree with you, sir. Any suggestions?

Romanian convoy broken.png (264.37 KiB) Viewed 838 times

[Argothair]

Overland convoys work in the same way as sea ones, except they have to start and stop at a land resource, ideally the capital as that generally makes the most sense.

With waypoints on land between the sender's and receiver's capital.

@BillRunacre Unfortunately, I am not getting the desired behavior. My code is below; is there something I need to change in order to create an overland convoy? Thanks for any guidance you can provide.

Code: Select all

; DE 690 - Rumanian oil convoys to Germany:
{
#NAME= Rumanian Oil Shipments To Germany
#POPUP=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND= convoy.ogg
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
; Romania politically tilted to Axis and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 93 [1] [60] [0]
; Set link value to always trigger (dummy value)
#LINK= 0[0]
#SENDER_ID= 93
#RECIPIENT_ID= 45
#SENDER_ID_TRIGGER= 0
#RECIPIENT_ID_TRIGGER= 100
#PERCENTAGE= 40
#MAX_PERCENTAGE= 40
#SPRING_REDUCTION= 100
#SUMMER_REDUCTION= 100
#FALL_REDUCTION= 100
#WINTER_REDUCTION= 100
#SOURCE_PORT= 115,48
#DESTINATION_PORT= 101,36
#WAYPOINT= 108,46
}

[BillRunacre]

Unfortunately, my game does not agree with you, sir. Any suggestions?
Romanian convoy broken.png

Hi

Yes, the resource type has to be either an urban resource or a port, things like Mines and Oil are excluded.

I can understand why you set the Oil to be the one, but the engine doesn't currently support the convoy starting or ending at that type. Change it to say Bucharest and hopefully all will be well.

[Chernobyl]

Overland convoys work in the same way as sea ones, except they have to start and stop at a land resource

In SC:WWI you can block convoys by controlling one of the hexes along the way, right? So that's one difference between the land and the sea I believe?

I also believe you need to control all the hexes along the way, with no neutral nations in between, correct? I'm looking at Hungary and thinking a Bucharest-Berlin convoy probably would get blocked if Hungary is still neutral.

Also I wonder what happens if a sub (or naval bomber) is next to or around an overland convoy, as we probably wouldn't want these convoys to take losses from raiders.

But it sounds like you're saying there isn't any new code in SC:WWI that permits overland convoys and it should work exactly in this game as it does in that game.

[Argothair]

Yes, the resource type has to be either an urban resource or a port, things like Mines and Oil are excluded.

I can understand why you set the Oil to be the one, but the engine doesn't currently support the convoy starting or ending at that type. Change it to say Bucharest and hopefully all will be well.

OK, thanks, it's working for me now. And, personally, I have no problem with requiring control of Hungary in order to get your oil from Romania -- if you try to build pipes in Yugoslavia, the partisans will blow 'em up.

[BillRunacre]

Overland convoys work in the same way as sea ones, except they have to start and stop at a land resource

In SC:WWI you can block convoys by controlling one of the hexes along the way, right? So that's one difference between the land and the sea I believe?

I also believe you need to control all the hexes along the way, with no neutral nations in between, correct? I'm looking at Hungary and thinking a Bucharest-Berlin convoy probably would get blocked if Hungary is still neutral.

Also I wonder what happens if a sub (or naval bomber) is next to or around an overland convoy, as we probably wouldn't want these convoys to take losses from raiders.

But it sounds like you're saying there isn't any new code in SC:WWI that permits overland convoys and it should work exactly in this game as it does in that game.

Naval units and Bombers cannot interdict a land convoy, though it can go through neutral countries, e.g. Russia to Serbia's in WWI goes through a neutral Romania. However, in that instance Romania has to be pro-Entente. So all hexes it passes through have to either be in friendly hands, or with a friendly leaning.

[Chernobyl]

Naval units and Bombers cannot interdict a land convoy, though it can go through neutral countries, e.g. Russia to Serbia's in WWI goes through a neutral Romania. However, in that instance Romania has to be pro-Entente. So all hexes it passes through have to either be in friendly hands, or with a friendly leaning.

Cool!

[ThunderLizard11]

We could argue that Food, Manpower, and Metals are represented in or by MPP.

However, I've always considered the lack of an "oil crisis" to be the weakest point of this series.

No oil, no offensives. Once you read up on the German (and Italian and Japanese) oil crises early in the world, you'll understand better why oil is not about production per see but rather maintenance costs and requirements. Without an oil supply, your flashy Tiger II and whatnot will simply attack less or not move, which is what happened to the Axis.

The situation in this series is so severe that, as the Axis you can ignore Romania, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Indonesia, and Malaysia and still win without much problem.

That is highly ahistorical. I am okay with it in the same way I didn't care about in Panzer General (and alike), but once you step into the realm of grand strategy, it becomes slowly an issue.

I mean, I strongly agree with you as a matter of history, I'm just not sure how much I care as a gamer. If you're going to separate out oil from the other resources, then it's hard to see why metal, food, and maybe even total manpower or total number of engineers shouldn't also be dealt with separately. If you build too many infantry units, then it should damage your economy because there is nobody left to work in your farms and factories. If you are constantly repairing your tanks and planes and ships, then maybe you don't have enough skilled engineers to do all the repairs properly. If you lose access to Sweden and Turkey and Spain, then you have a metals shortage; if you lose access to Belgium and Poland and Ukraine then you have a food shortage. Where does it end? How complex does the economy have to be before it offers an acceptable level of accuracy?

Another problem is that there is no mechanic in the game that limits or rations your movement abilities or your ability to make attacks; that would have to be programmed in from scratch, and it would seriously unbalance the game until a lot more playtesting was done. Right, like in the board game Unconditional Surrender, you have to pay $1 (out of a monthly budget of roughly $40) to activate each unit for movement and attack. You might have 25 units on the front line, so if you are spending $20 on building and replacing your units and conducting diplomacy, then you will have to pick some of your units that will just rest for the turn and not take any actions. That's an interesting tradeoff that's built right into the core of the game. By contrast, in SC WWII:WaW, you are free to move all of your units as often as you like at zero cost -- the only downside to moving and attacking with units is that they lose some entrenchment bonuses, and possibly a little bit of morale; it does not currently affect your economy in any way. There's the barest nod to the logistics of attacking in the way artillery units sometimes store up surplus 'shells' over time so that they can eventually fire 3 shells in the same turn, but mostly you just attack whenever you feel like it. It's not just that you don't need oil to attack -- you don't need *any* resources to attack; that's just not part of the game right now.

Should it be? Perhaps, but it require a fairly radical rewrite to the game's core design, in my opinion.

Oil is different in that Japan in particular expanded war specifically over oil access. It would give axis another strategic aspect to worry about. Build limits could be another way to handle.

[CaesarAug]

Interesting ideas. Question: how would you mod, say, a double MPP “oil” value from Romania to Germany, or from the Dutch East Indies to Japan? Would setting the percentages to 200% work, or would it be some other adjustment?