SOE: Finland understrength

[DarkHorse2]

You guys have Finland fairly understrength from the historical numbers during the Winter War.

In SOE(1939), Finland has:
- 1 HQ (Mannerheim)
- 2 Corps (Helsinki, Suomussalmi)
- 4 Garrisons (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
- 1 Fighter

Whereas, ....

Finland had at least 3 Corps.
- II Corps (vicinity of Vyborg)
- III Corps (vicinity of Priozersk)
- IV Corps (area north of Lake Ladoga)

(see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Wa ... sthmus.png )
(see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... c-1939.png )

As well as
- North Finland Group, composed of:
-- Lapland Group
-- North Karelian Group

Ol' Dr. Neo also gives them more troops as well in 1939:

- Army of the Isthmus
+-- II Corps
+-- III Corps
- IV Corps
+-- 12th Infantry Div
+-- 13th Infantry Div
- 6th Infantry Div
- 9th Infantry Div
- North Finland Group
+-- Lapland Group
+-- North Karalia Group
- Home Troops
+-- Various Garrisons stationed throughout

http://www.niehorster.org/024_finland/3 ... /_shq.html

By 1941, Finland had five Corps deployed.

http://www.niehorster.org/024_finland/4 ... _dfgs.html

More info can be found here:
In the following, Nigel Askey shows Finland mobilzed with 6 Corps at the onset of Barbarossa (II, III, IV, VI, VII, O Corps) comprised of 16 Finnish Divisions + 163rd (German) Infantry Division.
https://operationbarbarossa.net/wp-cont ... une-41.pdf

The Finnish mobilization strength was 337,000 soldiers by 1940 and 475,000 soldiers by the summer of 1941.
The number of Finnish Divisions was raised from 9 to 16.

There was noway that Finland could have held out against the USSR during the Winter War with the paultry forces SOE gives them.

[DarkHorse2]

Additionally, the Finns should have at least a Motor-Torpedo unit in 1939.

While they never had a large navy, what they did have was very active.

https://www.feldgrau.com/ww2-german-bal ... naval-war/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Se ... 80%931945)

The Finnish Navy operated the following vessels in the Baltic Sea:

Two coastal defence ships (Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen)
Five submarines (Vesihiisi, Iku-Turso, Vetehinen, Vesikko and Saukko)
Four gunboats (Turunmaa, Karjala, Uusimaa and Hämeenmaa)
Seven motor torpedo boats (two Sisu class, one Isku class, four Syöksy class)
One minelayer (Louhi)
Eight minesweepers (six Ahven class, two Rautu class)
One training ship Suomen Joutsen

The following illustrates how one-sided the Baltic shipping losses were during WWII.

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BalticSeaShipsSunk.jpg (145.76 KiB) Viewed 207 times

see - https://www.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/ ... 32f8432687

[DarkHorse2]

This is SOE's Finnish force pool for 1939-1945.

IMO, it should be bumped as follows:

* Garrisons 4->6

* Corps 4->6

* Engineer 0->1

* Hvy Artillery 0->1

* AntiAir 0->1

* Motor Torpedo Boat 0->1

* Sub 0->1 (Finland actually sank a couple of Soviet Subs with their own. )

* Maritime Bomber and/or Tac Bomber 0->1 (i am on the fence about the Maritime.... however, the Axis do not currently have nearly enough Maritime Bombers to even police the Baltic + Adriadic, so this would help to offset that....)

(see - https://operationbarbarossa.net/wp-cont ... uly-41.pdf )

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FinlandBuildData.jpg (140.43 KiB) Viewed 190 times

[DarkHorse2]

Regarding the Finnish Engineer (missing from SOE), it might not be well know that Finland spent a good deal of effort fortifying various positions during 1940-1941.

In fact, both the Finnish and Soviet positions have been described as devolving into a form of trench warfare from 1942-1944.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salpa_Line
https://www.nationalparks.fi/en-US/salpalineanakainen

[BillRunacre]

When designing a campaign OOBs are obviously the starting point for deploying units, but they aren't the only factor, and if changes were to be made here then other changes would like have to be made, e.g. to Soviet strengths.

There are reasons why we do not necessarily adhere to strict OOBs in all our campaigns, because the overall feel of the game is the priority, and sometimes adding more units here and there can actually move a game away from having the right feel.

Things like this are really a discussion for the main forum so that players can add their input, and discuss the consequences were any changes to be made here.

It's also the case that as the game has been out so long, I cannot now remember why we may have made specific decisions regarding OOBs such as this. Fortunately sometimes players do remember - particularly if they were involved in the discussions!

[DarkHorse2]

OK, then move the thread to the main forum.

ty

But to realistically be able to survive the Winter War, Finland's southern troop deployment would have had to at least include the following....

Otherwise, Finnish survivability becomes so unplausable it is shear fantasy.

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FinlandUpdatedDeployment_1939.jpg (184.29 KiB) Viewed 149 times

[DarkHorse2]

At the end of the day, you have to be able to show Finland could survive this kind of Soviet onslaught.

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Winterwar-december1939-soviet-attacks.png (80.82 KiB) Viewed 146 times

[DarkHorse2]

If you are worried about play balance, all you have to do is look to the historical record and see how was such of a small country as Finland (3.7 million pop) able to field such of a proportionally strong army (400k+ solders) ?

Well, it required an in-fusion of German economic assistance in 1941-1942 in the terms of grain shipments, logistical support (i.e. locomotives) and other strategic resources (fuel, oil).

The historical record supports this assertion.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 43v03/d167

Some key take aways from the Finnish 1942 economic situation can be gleaned from:

1942 exports (total) - 5,477,000,000 marks
1942 exports to Germany - 3,511,000,000 marks
1942 imports (total) - 11,709,000,000 marks
1942 imports from Germany - 8,420,000,000 marks

By 1942, 72% of all of Finnish imports were coming from Germany and included -

List commodities obtained from Germany comprises almost without exception all [of the] most essential goods. Total value for us [of] vitally important grain and cereal products exceeded considerably billion marks, fully 100% coming from Germany. Mineral fuels, textile materials and products represent next billion mark [of the] import group. Examination [of] various textile items discloses over 90% [of] most items represents Germany’s share. Next group comprises iron, steel and products thereof, Germany’s share this group also exceeding billion marks.

By 1943, it had risen to 94%, with the remaining 6% coming from Sweden.

In game terms, this translates to a MPP expenditure by Germany to keep the Finnish economy solvent.