TRP - Total Realism Project for War in Europe (1.10b Download)

[OldCrowBalthazor]

The MP Series with me and Duedman is up and running. Turns go up daily on each channel. Good stuff.
Balthazor's Strategic Arcana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1caHdsktJU
Duedman-Alles was knallt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuf0WnNae24&t=87s

[Elessar2]

Rock and roll!

[Jazon]

Hi!
I am up to your Youtube match guys(Duedman and Old Crow). I was a bit surprised how easy September Campaign in Poland is easy for the Germans. I believe it's due to the settings for playing with AI. However I was thinking about solution for multiplayer to add some flavor and difficulty for Germans performing Fall Weiss Plan. Becase in TRP, there are more turns, I thin the conquest of Poland should be a bit more challenging, time and resources consuming for German side. So I rearranged a bit the Poland and Germany. In current version Wehrmacht get no loses during the fight, and it is really easy to force Poland to surrender very quickly. Although in 1939 campaign Germans didn't lose many soldiers (50-60k) the lost around 1/3 of their tanks, and whole German tanks and APC production in 39/40 winter was dedicated to cover those losses. Germans lost quiet a lot in those units who were the spearhead of the blitzkrieg, panzer and motorized cores.

I rearranged Polish forces to reflect the historical dilemmas that Germans had in 1939. With new positioning, and supply(I don't know why Poland had only one supply point in Warsaw(?), I added secondary supply centers in Cracov, Poznan, Lublin etc.), Germans have two ways of performing their attack on Poland. To make things straight: Poland still got no chance to withstand the attack of the Huns. However, as I tested, Germans can smash Poland in three turns of blitz attack, but it will cause some damage. Or, they can do the same with low loses in 4 to 5 turns. You can see on the picture, grey arrows represent what Germans did in first two weeks of the campaign, and polish counter attack in the centre against German advance to Warsaw.
I could make more historical bla bla bla, but that's not the point. I just give you a link to "polish patch" so you can try for yourself in the hot seat. In my opinion it will increase attractiveness of the game, because Polish campaign will force German player to do some choices(blitzkrieg with some loses, or conventional attack). Usually in MP games, Germans deal with Poland super quick and with no loses, so they can begin attack in the west very early in 1940. This will slow them down a bit. This will also give Allied player a chance(if they decide to use British MPP's to reinforce Poles) to drag Germans in Poland for 4-5 turns. Anyway, try for yourself in hotseat, it will literally take about half an hour.
If you don't like it, or it disturb the balance forget about it. I am just trying to give some idea, but I am not stubborn at it, after all Lothos is the boss of this MOD:)
Cheers All
Jazon
(Jakub)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ry1zmld09lj8g ... h.zip?dl=0

39 variant.png (2.09 MiB) Viewed 961 times

[Lothos]

Hi!
I am up to your Youtube match guys(Duedman and Old Crow). I was a bit surprised how easy September Campaign in Poland is easy for the Germans. I believe it's due to the settings for playing with AI. However I was thinking about solution for multiplayer to add some flavor and difficulty for Germans performing Fall Weiss Plan. Becase in TRP, there are more turns, I thin the conquest of Poland should be a bit more challenging, time and resources consuming for German side. So I rearranged a bit the Poland and Germany. In current version Wehrmacht get no loses during the fight, and it is really easy to force Poland to surrender very quickly. Although in 1939 campaign Germans didn't lose many soldiers (50-60k) the lost around 1/3 of their tanks, and whole German tanks and APC production in 39/40 winter was dedicated to cover those losses. Germans lost quiet a lot in those units who were the spearhead of the blitzkrieg, panzer and motorized cores.

I rearranged Polish forces to reflect the historical dilemmas that Germans had in 1939. With new positioning, and supply(I don't know why Poland had only one supply point in Warsaw(?), I added secondary supply centers in Cracov, Poznan, Lublin etc.), Germans have two ways of performing their attack on Poland. To make things straight: Poland still got no chance to withstand the attack of the Huns. However, as I tested, Germans can smash Poland in three turns of blitz attack, but it will cause some damage. Or, they can do the same with low loses in 4 to 5 turns. You can see on the picture, grey arrows represent what Germans did in first two weeks of the campaign, and polish counter attack in the centre against German advance to Warsaw.
I could make more historical bla bla bla, but that's not the point. I just give you a link to "polish patch" so you can try for yourself in the hot seat. In my opinion it will increase attractiveness of the game, because Polish campaign will force German player to do some choices(blitzkrieg with some loses, or conventional attack). Usually in MP games, Germans deal with Poland super quick and with no loses, so they can begin attack in the west very early in 1940. This will slow them down a bit. This will also give Allied player a chance(if they decide to use British MPP's to reinforce Poles) to drag Germans in Poland for 4-5 turns. Anyway, try for yourself in hotseat, it will literally take about half an hour.
If you don't like it, or it disturb the balance forget about it. I am just trying to give some idea, but I am not stubborn at it, after all Lothos is the boss of this MOD:)
Cheers All
Jazon
(Jakub)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ry1zmld09lj8g ... h.zip?dl=0
39 variant.png

Jazon, first thank you for taking your time and making these changes etc.... I do have some questions and feedback but before I do I would like for you to take down the link to your changes.

I am ok with people making changes to the mod for personal use or for use in a private MP game.

However, changes to the mod itself and then making them public is not something I approve unless you are going to make so many changes that the differences between your mod and my mod are so different that you can't even tell you used my mod as a starting point. Even then I would like for people to ask me for permission.

With that said, lets go over some of your ideas

Secondary Supply points, you are correct I should add some in and it was an oversight by me.

Re-arranging the units, the issue I have here is that it is not historically accurate. The current Polish starting layout is close to the historical layout they had and their locations. I did some research and found maps of the 1939 invasion and the locations of the units.

What I found interesting in your OOB is that you added a second HQ. I have not downloaded and installed your version but what HQ did you add and was that leader performed at the time the Germans invaded Poland. If so many that is something we can add in as leaders do make things harder for the opposite side.

[Taxman66]

Jazon is approaching this from a MP play balance point of view.
For Single Player I think Poland is OK, particularly if you play with a setting where the AI gets an EXP pip. In that case Poland will in all likelihood fall on turn 3 (from my experience either as AI Allied or AI Axis).

For Multiplayer, given the events in the Let's Play, it looks like there is about 40-50% chance of getting Poland to fall on turn 2, unless the Allied player is willing to spend money.

Lothos, IF you want to strengthen Poland without increasing the number of Polish units or the locations there are a few other options you could do: Increase the existing units starting health, remove any surprise attack bonus Germany may have (It's not like the Poles didn't see it coming), increase starting entrenchment levels (if not already maxed), or simply up their morale/readiness. Even simply increasing the starting Polish HQ's strength would help a lot.

Indirectly I think Jazon is concerned with a point I made a long time ago, and which led to one of the big 'MP house rules' that Butterzone and Duedman agreed on regarding no declarations of war on the Low Countries until April 1940.

The only other option here is to do what World in Flames does and increase the political (i.e. US and/or USSR mobilization) consequences if GE attacks the Low Countries before a certain point. Not sure if you want to go that route or not.

[Jazon]

Jazon, first thank you for taking your time and making these changes etc.... I do have some questions and feedback but before I do I would like for you to take down the link to your changes.

I am ok with people making changes to the mod for personal use or for use in a private MP game.

However, changes to the mod itself and then making them public is not something I approve unless you are going to make so many changes that the differences between your mod and my mod are so different that you can't even tell you used my mod as a starting point. Even then I would like for people to ask me for permission.

With that said, lets go over some of your ideas

Secondary Supply points, you are correct I should add some in and it was an oversight by me.

Re-arranging the units, the issue I have here is that it is not historically accurate. The current Polish starting layout is close to the historical layout they had and their locations. I did some research and found maps of the 1939 invasion and the locations of the units.

What I found interesting in your OOB is that you added a second HQ. I have not downloaded and installed your version but what HQ did you add and was that leader performed at the time the Germans invaded Poland. If so many that is something we can add in as leaders do make things harder for the opposite side.

Hi,
I am sorry, I didn't want to do any harm, I made only slight changes, only as a voice in discussion. If you want I will delete a link, no problem.
I played with myself eight times, checking what outcome I can get.
Changes I made:
I moved German XVII Core from mountain in Carpathian to a railroad and road behind the other German core. I did it because even if this location is geographically accurate It doesn't make sense in game logic - this unit exit point for offensive is rather awkward. In East Prussia I move Kongisberg garrison to Johannesburg. German North eastern flank was covered by two fortress Brigades "Goldap" and "Lotzen", so equivalent of a garrison is good I guess. I didn't add any units to the Germans, because I was aware it may have some effect on further game balance. I checked the positions you made for Germans and you got pretty accurate! (There is small mistake, in East Prussia there is "Wodrig" Corps, you must have misspell writing (it's WDDRIG), but it doesn't matter much.
As for the Poles i redeploy some of the units, and add some independent infantry divisions, and I will explain why later, but In terms of quantity I didn't <puff> the forces from nowhere.
Back in the days, before I got my first PC, we used to play tabletop games with, just like SC, but you now, tokens and dice. There was whole system published, also I was very interested in the topic, so actually I remember all the positions of almost each Division on Polish side. However when you put something in higher scale, you need to make compromises, so I understand it won't be 100% accurate. I also know, you can't put everything in the game, because the mechanics is not perfect. How to calculate the strength of both sides?
The easiest way is to calculate divisions. Without getting to much into historical details, Polish infantry Divisions were almost equal to German Infantry division. The big difference in favor of Germans were motorized and armored divisions and of course air force. That's the one way to calculate it. And current quantity of Polish army is under calculated, because Germans got a core unit (for two or three divisions), while Poles got core unit for an ARMY(which in case of Modlin, Karpaty and Narew has sense, because they had two divisions, but other armies had from 4 to even 7 infantry divisons, and they are still represented as a core.) Also as a minor their units are weaker, so it gives another bonus for Germans. While actually in Infantry divisions German first wave (37Inf plus 1 Mountain) was equal to Polish (38 Divisions, 1 Mountain). Later, due to polish resistance, German Command were forced to put in strategic reserves, consisting additional infantry divisions. Now, if Germans decide to put their strategic reserves into fight in 1939, why we are giving them a baby walk in the game? Last polish troops surrendered on October 6th, Warsaw capitulated on 28th of September, the biggest battle at Bzura river was from 9.09 to 17.09, the second biggest battle at Tomaszów Lubelski(actually two battles)17.09-20.09; and 22-27.09, plus many more other clashes. Germans were 100% involved till end of the September. Why we let them win in two turns, without much effort(from player) and loses (in strength points)?

Other way, to give players the impression of what happened, is to model the situation, according to game mechanics, that the German player and Allied Player face the same challenges the both sides had in September of 1939. This is what I tried to achieve. Main German idea at the original Fall Weiss plan is to close the "small pincers" around polish armed forces west to Vistula river in first 10 days of the operation. However, due to polish resistance, and retreat, they changed the concept during the fight, and decide to do the "big pincers" east to Vistula River, and this is why Guderian XIX core move towards Eastern Prussia and attacked west to Bialystok. In most games I've seen on youtube, German player will never do it, because he doesn't need to. Also Poles never had the opportunity to counterattack, as they did in battle of Bzura(the arrow i made on the pic).
I added divisions for Poland, one in Pomerania corridor, and one at the coast. They were there, one from "Pomorze" army (9th division) and Costal force made of Navy land forces. This will force German player either to directly attack and clear the coast, or go to Bydgoszcz. This way, you can't have both in one turn. In south, Germans could either take Cracov or Lodz in the first turn, but they can't have both. The same in the North, Germans can either seize Torun or Mlawa(fortification) position. The outcome is, Germans need to try to cut out as much as they can Polish forces in the west, because otherwise they will retreat to Warsaw, where they can resist for longer time. Even if Wehrmacht do so, as you would see, it will still give Poles some space to maneuver in the centre. And this is exactly what have happened.
Additional HQ (gen. Kutrzeba) in the centre, represents, what Poles did on September 9th, when commander of Poznan Army took command of Pomorze Army and other tnits, formed two-army Task Force; and using 8 divisions and 3 cavalry brigades counterattacked German flank near Lodz, in purpose to relieve Warsaw from approaching German 10th Army. Poles used in that battle more then 1k of field guns, and routed German 30th Inf Division. German pressure on Warsaw ceased, because Wehrmacht needed to turn back forces from Warsaw to fight gen. Kutrzeba.
Additional HQ is needed reinforce Poles in the middle. Also Poles mobilized 40 division and 1 mln people to fight, with officers and HQs. Representing this in one HQ unit doesn't seem proportional to me, when German side have two HQs.

But all that are details, and I could discuss it a lot, but that's not the point. Main point is, also as Taxman66 said, that in multiplayer, Poland is too easy, which is a)historically not correct b) gives the German player opportunity to attack the low countries in late winter /early spring 1940. My main idea is to fix it. How to do it is another thing. I deeply respect the amount of work you have put in this MOD(which is great!), so I was only giving an idea to make it better. Final decision is up to you, because you are the manager of this project. If you consider it a bad idea, it's fine, you know best, because you designed this Mod from beginning, and you know all the consequences with scripts, force balance etc.

Cheers all!
Jazon

[Taxman66]

Jazon,

Quick suggestion: Take your modified Poland set up, play Single Player as the Allies (Axis AI on Veteran setting) and see how the AI does vs. your modified Poland.

[Jazon]

Jazon,

Quick suggestion: Take your modified Poland set up, play Single Player as the Allies (Axis AI on Veteran setting) and see how the AI does vs. your modified Poland.

Hi, I just did test vs. AI on expert setting. I was using allied MPP's to reinforce Poland and do strategical redeployment. But no matter what I tried, Germans in their 4th Turn (October 3rd) finished Poland. That's actually historically accurate. Also as far as I saw, German units paid a bit more for the victory in their loses than in initial TRP setting.
Jazon

[Taxman66]

Ok, Lothos is primarily concerned with Single Player. If this made it too hard on the AI you'd have no chance of getting him to agree on it at all.

Did you give the AI 1 or 2 free EXP pips? If 2 see what happens with 1 pip (recommended settings).

[Lothos]

Ok, Lothos is primarily concerned with Single Player. If this made it too hard on the AI you'd have no chance of getting him to agree on it at all.

Did you give the AI 1 or 2 free EXP pips? If 2 see what happens with 1 pip (recommended settings).

I am reading through his other suggestions, right now I am leaning toward a hybrid of what you suggested which was to increase the units strength and perhaps add the HQ with some secondary supplies.

[Cameraeye]

Is World at War still needed for the latest download? Or is just having WIE okay?

[Taxman66]

You get the WiE version here (see first post), it is in a more complete state.

There is a WaW version over on that board.

[ReinerAllen]

I've been playing a single player game with FOG off, as the Allies, just to see how things played out. In the early turns of the game, I noticed that 2 Italian destroyers in Venice keep switching out of the Venice port each turn, replacing each other, without really doing anything. Not sure if it's important - just thought I'd mention it.

[Cameraeye]

You get the WiE version here (see first post), it is in a more complete state.

There is a WaW version over on that board.

Thanks Taxman66

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hi, I never had the balls (but my opponent does ) to do this but 3 U-boats showed up to to raid the Canadians after the US Exclusion Zone is up.
At the end of the turn the Canadian resources got damaged of course.

Question: When do the U-boats suffer damage for the provocation?
Was also curious if there are probabilities of hits and the range of damage.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hi, I never had the balls (but my opponent does ) to do this but 3 U-boats showed up to to raid the Canadians after the US Exclusion Zone is up.
At the end of the turn the Canadian resources got damaged of course.

Question: When do the U-boats suffer damage for the provocation?
Was also curious if there are probabilities of hits and the range of damage.

I found this in the SC-WaW Strategy Guide. I realize that this isn't exactly what is going on here with TRP:
Eastern Pan-American Security Zone
- US will swing 1-2% per turn towards the Allies if there are any Axis naval units within:
 14 hexes of Norfolk Port
 14 hexes of New Orleans Port
 10 hexes of Santo Domingo Port in the Dominican Republic
 10 hexes of Panama Port

Anyways, just went through a second turn of 3 U-boats raiding. I was expecting damage to them like what happens in the Italian Adriatic Exclusion Zone (Vigo and Canary E.Z also), but there was none. It did seem that the USA's mobilization rose modestly. I will have to check my prior vid (recorded turn) to see where the US was then.
Still, it would be nice to know what exactly should happen if Axis vessels cross like featured. The parameters of the malus that the Germans, Italians, or any other Axis power and\or ship receives.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Well figured it out...this type of zone increases US mobilization per turn that Axis vessels are within.
So the US mobilization jumped 5% from the previous turn. Not sure if this is a hard number or if there's a variable...but I will find out soon if the Germans persist.

[Taxman66]

What's the date?
I'm not sure of the exact TRP details of US mobilization, but in vanilla there is a steady increase in 1941, that may be partially responsible.

Another idea is to careful review the messages at the start of the turn. You can bring them back up by pressing l (lower case L), iirc.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

What's the date?
I'm not sure of the exact TRP details of US mobilization, but in vanilla there is a steady increase in 1941, that may be partially responsible.

Another idea is to careful review the messages at the start of the turn. You can bring them back up by pressing l (lower case L), iirc.

It was the mid and late November turns of 1940...so the Americans are getting pissed.

[Taxman66]

I think his goal is to shut down the Canadian convoy line, by reducing the port. Anything short of that is going to be a net Allied gain in MPP.

Still unless he goes ridiculous ham, it is unlikely this will cause the US to enter early. However, it will jack up their pre war income noticeably and help with tech investment and/or some early unit buys. Suggestion: Maritime bomber(s) or a DD or 2 (CVLs not available yet), and while the US fleet is big there are not many DDs in it.