So, when is the new patch coming out?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

From what Bob is saying he seems to be suffering from numero uno and duo. And that's just worrying.

Back that up with a quote from me!

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I don't know why.

Because he has an axe to grind. He lurks here posting digs at the game constantly. Never posts an AAR. Never finishes his grand scenario. Just grouses constantly knocking the game. Its very tiresome. I doubt that he ever plays.

[gliz2]

Bob you've just wrote that "I'm currently forced to do it all".

That's not true. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it all (alone).
You are choosing so. If you'd really want to share the workload there would be already a team.
But you seem to be stacking problems and excuses.
Either you have luxurious arrangement for the job you do, which I doubt is the case or you simply are not capable of handling things, which is not uncommon.
And this is not bashing Bob but a constructive criticism.

Of course maybe you have a good deal, bills to pay and just don't want to kill this cash cow but again: I highly doubt it this is the case.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Bringing in coders with no stake is risky. One bad apple and we go to open source!"[/i]

As others have pointed out, leaked code does not make a program "open source". If someone wants to play a free version of TOAW IV, I'm sure they could find a version on the internet. Someone would have to be insane to take the twenty year old TOAW code and improve it for commercial purposes. And someone improving it for non-commercial purposes...well, that's exactly what we're asking you to do in taking on a volunteer...

Frankly I don't get the issue at all, especially if Matrix and Ralph are OK with that, as they seem to be.

I guess that's why software companies always post their proprietary code publicly. Not.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Bob you've just wrote that "I'm currently forced to do it all".

That's not true. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it all (alone).
You are choosing so. If you'd really want to share the workload there would be already a team.
But you seem to be stacking problems and excuses.
Either you have luxurious arrangement for the job you do, which I doubt is the case or you simply are not capable of handling things, which is not uncommon.
And this is not bashing Bob but a constructive criticism.

Of course maybe you have a good deal, bills to pay and just don't want to kill this cash cow but again: I highly doubt it this is the case.

Amazing what people can dream up on zero evidence.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I guess that's why software companies always post their proprietary code publicly. Not.

[>:][>:][>:][>:]

[gliz2]

So you are saying you are being forced to work on TOAW IV on your own. Otherwise Kim Junior will send you his "best regards" 🙄

[sithlord_shag]

To characterise this discussion as constructive criticism is stretching that idea to its breaking point. Its really just now a series of competing factual disputes.

I think what is significant is Lobster's claim that he had communication with someone form Matrix who greenlit volunteer involvement. I think Lobster is obliged to particularise the details of that communication. Basically, who and what was discussed?

If they never bothered to tell Bob its not fair for him to wear that.

[Simon Edmonds]

Ok. Lets particularize some details.

Posted on May 25 2006 on Electronic Games
Topic: TOAW 3 - Ralph Trickey Interview
Question: "What aspect of the past six months has been the most difficult battle you’ve had to fight as a coder?"
Answer: The most difficult thing is that the language is an ‘old’ language. Norm Koger did an excellent job of writing TOAW, but I’m having to drop my programming knowledge back about 20 years. I’m hoping to rewrite it in a more friendly language (C++ or C#) over the next X years."

So that in my opinion is the direction Ralph wants to head. Which direction do you want to head Bob? I don't mean that in a negative way either. You lead and we will pitch in with help and suggestions for the game and the code. We don't have to see the code. Half of us wouldn't understand it anyway. Just tell us in specific terms what you are trying to achieve. Here is an example.

Situation: Other games have a "line of command" built into them to model the effects of different leaders. It is something TOAW should do.
Mission: To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
Execution: 1. Code in the effect in a "least effect fashion. 2. Playtest. 3. Make the effect stronger. 4. Playtest. 5. Repeat this process until
a balance is achieved.
Admin & Log: All code will be held by Bob Cross. Playtesters will be selected and provided with additional information as required. Comunication
will be via the forum and pm's. All stakeholders (game owners) will notified of progress and problems via the forum.
Comd & Control: Bob Cross will be in charge of coding with control of who codes what and who sees what code. (compartmentalization)

Assuming this is acceptable; the sort of help and suggestions might be: "What if we add an extra column to the unit table to show a numeric code representing the leader of the formation." "We could have a table for all of the leaders and their strengths with a code for each leader and a value column for each of the strengths they bring to the table" "We could have a form where players could edit the leaders and values for their own scenarios.
And so on. It's like a snow ball rolling down a hill. It's all about communication.

But first as Ralph said: "We need to rewrite it in a friendly language".

By the way. What language is it currently written in?

[sithlord_shag]

Thats a good description of an aspiration, but that is not what I had in mind in terms of particularising the details of the claim that Matrix have agreed to allow volunteers to participate. I think only Lobster is in that position to answer that question.

[sPzAbt653]

You lead and we will pitch in with help and suggestions

You are assuming that help and suggestions are welcome?

[larryfulkerson]

Speaking of re-writing TOAW in a different language: Alvaro Sousa is THE developer for War Plan Pacific and he wrote WPP using the Unity Game Engine and C# and as far as I know he's the only developer for that game and he has been keeping up with frequent updates and fixes galore. It's my understanding that Unity is a great platform to write games quickly and easily. I've played with it and I haven't yet found something I can't do with it. SOMEBODY might want to look into that.

[Simon Edmonds]

Hey Larry. 76mm and myself had big look into that. We even did all the Catlike Coding Tutorials. Personally I had concerns over how it handled the hexsides. The inability to have rivers on a hexside for me was a deal breaker. That's not to say it couldn't be done in 2D. We didn't find a lot of relevant examples for that though. My thought was that if you are going to do it in 2D (and pseudo 3D) it's a lot simpler to do it in C#.
How have you found hexsides on the games you have seen?

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds
Hey Larry. 76mm and myself had big look into that. We even did all the Catlike Coding Tutorials. Personally I had concerns over how it handled the hexsides. The inability to have rivers on a hexside for me was a deal breaker. That's not to say it couldn't be done in 2D. We didn't find a lot of relevant examples for that though. My thought was that if you are going to do it in 2D (and pseudo 3D) it's a lot simpler to do it in C#.

How have you found hexsides on the games you have seen?

Yeah, I started to say that I was planning on using 2D and as far as I know there's no problem at all in designing your own tiles for the map. And you can do rivers on the hexsides all day long. Or roads, or bridges, etc. Actually I just downloaded the Unity Hub and haven't played with it a whole lot so there's things I'm not aware of and I have yet to actually write any serious C# code but it's not something I can't do. I'd like to hear your impressions of maybe using Unity to re-build a new TOAW and then donate it to Bob. Or something.
Unity:

[sithlord_shag]

I was just reading through posts 88, 92, 93 and 94. Surely you guys are jesting? I mean you know, jerking the chain, taking the pi$$, having a lend etc. Its meant to be funny isn't it?

[sPzAbt653]

Not really. There is an organization of about 10 guys that are more than interested and willing to contribute to a new Operational Game. The problem has been getting anyone to commit to coding.

Just my opinion and not based on anything other than gut feelings, that TOAW is mired in several layers of Rights that cannot be readily resolved.

[sithlord_shag]

The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag

The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

Development? I would be happy to see all known bugs fixed.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag

The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

Development? I would be happy to see all known bugs fixed.

[&o]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The, now oft repeated, lie that I'm preventing adding coders. Here is the reality: Matrix has total control over that. But look at the situation they're in: If they want to hire a new coding pro, they would have to offer Ralph's royalties to that coder. But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself. That leaves relying on non-pros working for free. You get what you pay for, and there are real risks entrusting the code to people with no stake or commitment to the game.

Volunteers don't get paid. Never once mentioned hiring anyone. Nor did Tamas or Ralph when they said ok to volunteers. More Bob deflection.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself.

Are you worried volunteers will make you look bad? You were a volunteer once. A non pro working for free. Neither you nor Matrix had a problem taking on a volunteer there. More Bob deflection.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You get what you pay for.

And there is the truth at last. That's why no patches or bug fixes.

Oh wait. It's going to be all Ralph's fault. [:D]

You do an okay job Bob for a paid volunteer, er, professional programmer. You are a professional programmer right? You have some good ideas. But I sometimes think you are in over your head and you definately could use some help.