Thinking of Taking TOAW4 On Again

[redboot]

I was looking this game over today and was thinking of taking it up again after many years. How does it hold up as a multiplayer experience these days? Is it easy/difficult to find opponents? Is the Discord still a thing? Is there a better hex-based historical multiplayer experience, other than Tiller's games, which I've played to death?

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[Zovs]

It still holds up I think.

I just logged into the online play (MP) and saw one new challenge over the last 2 days. Discord is still a thing and I do see a lot of posts for opponents on both the "official" Matrix Discord server and the Hex! Discord server.

Depending on your preferences there is always a better historical MP experience. But WDS (the old JTS games, now acquired by WDS since John Tillers passing) is still the best out there. There is Warplan, Warplan Pacific, and OOB for "Matrix's MP" system, and there is a lot of folks PBEM many games such as WITE2, MWIF, and other fine games.

My opinion is still that the WDS games (from all their series) is the the best there is.

[redboot]

That's very helpful, thanks. I can't argue with you about John Tiller's games. I was just looking for something fresh (to me). What do you mean by "OOB for "Matrix's MP" system"? I didn't know Warplan had MP actually. Silly me. I prefer operational games, but that may be worth a look.

[redboot]

Oh. Perhaps you mean Order of Battle? Maybe a bit too beer and pretzels for me. Or has it fleshed out since I first tried it?

[Zovs]

Yes Order of Battle, it’s fun but still a B&P game. WarPlan is like the old board wargame WW2 from SPI/TSR. Strategic but fun.

[Zovs]

Flashpoint series is one of the best modern operational games but its modern combat and WEGO, I also like Desert War and Stalingrad both WEGO games. I also like MWiF and really like CO2 (Command Ops 2).

[governato]

I think the TOAW4 engine is still one of the most flexible.

Try to play scenarios that were specifically designed for it (there are a lot of engine parameters that can now be edited by the designer) Those scenarios are great human vs human. (I honestly think the current TOAW engine is better than the one in GWITE for example)

Also, remember that the AI/PO was designed a) in the 90ies and b) for simple attack then counterattack scenarios (TOAW initially focused on corps/division level scenarios)...then the community pushed for
larger scale engagements. Those are harder for a scripted AI. (again my 2c)
The Road to Smolensk series is my favorite. There are other scenario that are regulary maintained, just check the various forums and good luck!

P.S
these days I like "WEGO Stalingrad" such a fun game but very rooted in hisotrical simulations.

[Zovs]

Here I would disagree, the TOAW engine is not as good as the WITE2 engine is, but WITE2 is specifically designed for the East Front 1941-1945 and really these is no other comparison when it comes to operational level games, hands down WITE2 is the winner here.

TOAW is ultimately a wargame construction kit. It can't really be specialized in any theater, era or timeline. It does what it does pretty good, but for a specific theater or era your best bet would be to use games designed around those parameters, i.e., WITE2 for the East Front, WITW for the West Front and Med Front, WITEP-AE for the Pacific, WDS for just about any era for any of the series. etc.

[governato]

Here I would disagree, the TOAW engine is not as good as the WITE2 engine is, but WITE2 is specifically designed for the East Front 1941-1945 and really these is no other comparison when it comes to operational level games, hands down WITE2 is the winner here.

TOAW is ultimately a wargame construction kit. It can't really be specialized in any theater, era or timeline. It does what it does pretty good, but for a specific theater or era your best bet would be to use games designed around those parameters, i.e., WITE2 for the East Front, WITW for the West Front and Med Front, WITEP-AE for the Pacific, WDS for just about any era for any of the series. etc.

Cordial disagreeing is the best! I find GWITE and WITW overdesigned and some of their fundamental choices not convincing (say choice of spatial vs turn time scale, disengagement rules, lack of any production tweaks, unclear focus on what the role of the players is, tendency to encourage bean counting vs operational planning). They surely look pretty and massive .

My favorite specialized game on the East Front is "DC Barbarossa". Effective but simple logistics, focus on being the operational commander. The Designer has a great record at producing realistic+fun games.

BUT I am digressing. We agree 100% on TOAW being a 'wargame construction kit'. There are a lot of good designers on this forum and they made some professional grade work.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's a list of the most recent scenarios built by the community:

Recent Scenario Submissions for TOAW IV
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=318742

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