Swiss Battalion TO&E circa 1980's

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: winkelried

This unit was a kind of a staff unit on regimental level - the companies operated independently

Nachrichtenkompanie = recon coy, used for recon for the regiment. the batallions had a section for recon.
Grenadierkompanie = one of the few elite units of the swiss army, had lots of explosives, flamethrowers etc. used either as the reserve of the Regiment commander or in a similar way as the German combat engineers.
Panzerabwehrkompanie= usually used as platoons to reinforce the infantry batallions when they had sectors where their rocket tubes (200m useful range) were too short ranged.
Schwere Minenwerferkompanie = the "artillery" of the regiment commander.

Okay I understand. I see something similar in the Grenzbrigade structure. So the Infantry regiments has these too.... I wonder if they just consolidated the Flak Batteries from Regiment into the Battalion at Division level... A couple of other armies did the same during this time span.

[winkelried]

Okay I understand. I see something similar in the Grenzbrigade structure. So the Infantry regiments has these too.... I wonder if they just consolidated the Flak Batteries from Regiment into the Battalion at Division level... A couple of other armies did the same during this time span.

All infantry regiments were organized +/- against the same blueprint. the units with the younger soldiers getting the newer equipment first.

yes the AA companies in the Infanterie Batallion were "green" AA, which means they were subordinated to Infantry (green color) and became "blue" AA subordinated to Flieger und Flab = Air Force. At the same time the met in place the divisional AA batallion.

[akdreemer]

Speaking of AA units, did the Army have Rapier units or were they all Airforce? I ask this as Switzerland bought only 60 fire units?

Was the Dual 35mm AA an Army weapon or Airforce?

When did Switzerland procure Stingers? I kind of wonder why they did not have them earlier in the 80's?

The Motorized Battalions in the Mech Div were organized the same as foot infantry but adding trucks?

Who manned the Sperrstellen found in the Grenzbrigades?

Did Tank Regiment HQ's the Recon Co, Grenadier Co, PzAbw Co and Lt Flak Co?

I really appreciate your help in this.

[winkelried]

Speaking of AA units, did the Army have Rapier units or were they all Airforce? I ask this as Switzerland bought only 60 fire units?

All AA was Airforce, but they were used to cover the movement of the Mech Div in case of a counterattack. In addition there were fixed Bloodhound batteries.

Was the Dual 35mm AA an Army weapon or Airforce?

Airforce mainly to protect airfields I understand.

When did Switzerland procure Stingers? I kind of wonder why they did not have them earlier in the 80's?

The decision was taken in 88/89 and the first were introduced in 1992.

The Motorized Battalions in the Mech Div were organized the same as foot infantry but adding trucks?

yes. Unimog mostly.

Who manned the Sperrstellen found in the Grenzbrigades?

The Grenzbrigaden.

Did Tank Regiment HQ's the Recon Co, Grenadier Co, PzAbw Co and Lt Flak Co?

No. The tank Regiments had only a Stabskompanie (Command Coy) and a Dienstkompanie (Service Company). I think they 2 MBTs too. And some M113.
In the Stabskompanie, there was a recon platoon (jeep) and a bridge laying platoon (4x Brückenpanzer 68).
In the Dienstkompanie you would find the recovery vehicles, cranes, trucks and maintenance personnel.correction those were with the Panzer Batallions

[winkelried]

maybe a short one on doctrine during the cold war

the main goal of the swiss armed forces was to credibly to be able to inflict an enemy so big losses and to the deny the main logistical axes (gotthard, simplon, ...) by holding or destroying them, so he would not consider entering switzerland as the price would be too high. there were two potential scenarios why an enemy would attack switzerland: 1) secure the mountain passes 2) get to the french plateau d'albion where the french nukes where based.

the army would fight three lines (one for each field corps FAK) in the central plain from the lake of constance to the lake of geneva. each line would be formed by the two field divisions of each FAK with strong points on company or batallion level. those strong points would normally set up for a circular defense and hold as long as possible.

the main reserve of the field divisions would be the panzer batallion typ B which would be used in so called "counterstrokes" (Gegenschlag) against enemy which had broken through into so called "counterstroke areas" (switzerland is quite hilly or quite urban in the central plain and there were only a few areas where a batallion sized tank battle could take place). the goal of the Gegenschlag was not to win back lost terrain, but to inflict as much losses as possible.

The same would be true for the Mech Div which was the counterstroke force of the FAK - maybe with the exception of Mech Div 11. It would be used as regiments or as a whole division. here again the areas where this would be possible were pretty limited.

The concept of the counterstroke required a very good timing to release the stroke when the broken through enemy was still weak enough to be destroyed.

[winkelried]

found something on the AA:

as you said the AA bttys of the Inf Rgt were consolidated into the Mobile Leichte Flab Abteilung of the divisions with five batteries with 16 20mm AA guns each for a total of 80 AA guns. the infantry regiments of the Grenz Brigaden kept their AA bttys with 16x 20mm each it seems.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: winkelried

found something on the AA:

as you said the AA bttys of the Inf Rgt were consolidated into the Mobile Leichte Flab Abteilung of the divisions with five batteries with 16 20mm AA guns each for a total of 80 AA guns. the infantry regiments of the Grenz Brigaden kept their AA bttys with 16x 20mm each it seems.

That a lot of 20mm guns floating around!

[akdreemer]

Are there any troops associated with the Territorial Zones, like Landwehr for instance? OOB I have seen there are Territorial Regiments?

[winkelried]

First a short overview of the age classes in TO61:

Auszug (Elite) between 20 and 32 - mostly in the Field Army (Feld Div, Mech Div, Geb Div).
Landwehr between 33 and 42 - mostly in the border brigades.
Landsturm between 43 and 50 - mostly in the Territorial troops.

The tasks of the territorial troops were:
- coverage for the mobilization of the Field Army (the territorials were people living close to their initial deployment areas)
- logistics for the Field Army
- protection of civil installations (government, railways, electrical plants, etc.)
- some police functions
I think the best way to describe them is as security troops.

They didn't have heavy weapons (maybe some MGs) and their personal weapons were updated in the last priority, so they carried carabines until late in the 1980s. They had very limited mobility. They may also have had some responsibility for destruction objects (bridges etc.).

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: winkelried

First a short overview of the age classes in TO61:

Auszug (Elite) between 20 and 32 - mostly in the Field Army (Feld Div, Mech Div, Geb Div).
Landwehr between 33 and 42 - mostly in the border brigades.
Landsturm between 43 and 50 - mostly in the Territorial troops.

The tasks of the territorial troops were:
- coverage for the mobilization of the Field Army (the territorials were people living close to their initial deployment areas)
- logistics for the Field Army
- protection of civil installations (government, railways, electrical plants, etc.)
- some police functions
I think the best way to describe them is as security troops.

They didn't have heavy weapons (maybe some MGs) and their personal weapons were updated in the last priority, so they carried carabines until late in the 1980s. They had very limited mobility. They may also have had some responsibility for destruction objects (bridges etc.).

I guess organized as regiments?, but sounds like to me very much home defense and very much static. I will deal with them later.

SO the panzerabwehr companies of the infantry regiments of the Grenz brigades were probably still 105mm RCL?

The Panzerabwehr Battalions (centurions) were also found in the Gebirgs divisions? Or were these battalions compsed of 105mm RCL?

[winkelried]

I guess organized as regiments?

yes.

SO the panzerabwehr companies of the infantry regiments of the Grenz brigades were probably still 105mm RCL?

I am not sure if they were organized in the Gz Rgt (border regiments - which where +/- infantry regiments). The border troops were static and relied on fortifications where they had quite a few 9 cm PaK 50 and 9 cm PaK 50/57. AFIK the never had the recoilless. The 9 cm Pak was pretty effective between 600 and 800m and the fortifications made good use of the often rugged and forested terrain in the border areas.

They also had their 12 cm mortars organized in fortresses. So probably the organization of the individual Gz Rgt and Gz Bat were pretty different depending on the fortifications they relied on.

The Panzerabwehr Battalions (centurions) were also found in the Gebirgs divisions? Or were these battalions compsed of 105mm RCL?

No. The Gebirgsdivisions didn't have any armor. I am not sure if they had any specific Panzerabwehrunits (there is one listed for the Geb Div 12, but I am not sure how long this one existed.). They relied also on the terrain and the fortresses for quite a bit - with the 9cm PaK to cover the axes which would be manageable by tanks. Have a look at the war in Afghanistan in the early 80s the Mujahedin didn't have a lot of AT weapons and were still able to ambush Soviet armored columns with quite an effect in the mounaineous areas of the country. And the Geb Div had lots of destruction objects (tunnels, roads clung to the mountains, bridges ...). So they would blow up something. Then wait for the pioneers which would try to repair it and would then put these soft targets under fire with their infantry weapons, mortars and artillery. And a few hundred meters/few kilometers farther back the same story again.