Ukraine 2022 - Development Thread

[sPzAbt653]

Welcome. We can work on a possible Ukraine 2022 scenario here. Attached is the work in progress scenario file. This map could withstand a full blown war in Europe situation. Just in case.

This is an ongoing conflict so we initially can't model history. Propaganda is certainly an issue.

All contributions are welcome. This map is from 1945 so it will need updating. TOAW is very flexible, and there is a full Editor for weapons systems. My area of interest is WWII, so modern systems are not very familiar to me. I believe I will grab the Modern Database that is posted here somewhere and try to use it.

Super Large thanks to Soren 'Doc' Gaun and the FitE2 Team for the use of their map as a base. It's even larger than what is seen in the Jump Map below (centered on Kyiv]:

[Graymane]

This is more of a WW3 take? Sorry I'm such a newb since I mainly play WW2, but can you model cruise missiles, drones, ICBMs, chemical weapons, etc? Or is this more a keep it tactical WW3 with no nukes?

Assuming you are starting with a small war and it escalates, here are some ways to look at the countries.

• In the EU and in NATO: Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Rep, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain.
  Non-EU NATO: Albania, Canada, Montenegro, North Mac., Norway, UK, US.
  In the EU but not in NATO: Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, Sweden.
  It's Complicated: Bosnia & H., Denmark, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine.

[sPzAbt653]

can you model cruise missiles, drones, ICBMs, chemical weapons, etc?

There is a full Editor for weapons systems. And I just set it up to use Josant's Modern Database, which already has many of those weapon systems.

[cathar1244]

can you model cruise missiles, drones, ICBMs, chemical weapons, etc?

There is a full Editor for weapons systems. And I just set it up to use Josant's Modern Database, which already has many of those weapon systems. The scenario file has been reposted in post 1.

Suggest before any further scenario work is done, that the scenario scope be decided.

Should it be a "WW3 in eastern Europe" scenario, or just address the invasion of Ukraine?

That question will point to how or if the map should be trimmed.

One comment. In a map of this scale, given modern armies, there will be a lot open space between formations. My WAG is that modern units can "exert a zone of control" about 3 times what they did in WW2. That is, if a division could control 10 to 15 kilometers of front in WW2, that may translate to 30 to 45 kilometers today. That may, in turn, point to what level of units to depict in the scenario, given the map scale.

Cheers

[Zovs]

I think this French author is pretty fair and balanced, a good military (at least so far) analysis.

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/

[golden delicious]

Suggest before any further scenario work is done, that the scenario scope be decided.

To be fair that's up to the designer. You can't make him build something other than what he wants. However, other people might not want to help.

For me this feels like it will become similar to other what if scenarios already existing and a smaller scenario would be more manageable, more interesting and more realistic, but that's up to some other designer if they want to build it. I don't really "do" modern anyway.

One comment. In a map of this scale, given modern armies, there will be a lot open space between formations. My WAG is that modern units can "exert a zone of control" about 3 times what they did in WW2. That is, if a division could control 10 to 15 kilometers of front in WW2, that may translate to 30 to 45 kilometers today. That may, in turn, point to what level of units to depict in the scenario, given the map scale.

This shouldn't be too much of a problem since units will have to be small for the scale anyway as modern armies are so small. Your figures would point to division scale at 10-15km per hex (so a ZOC out to 30-45km as you suggest) which already limits both players to just a handful of units on an enormous map.

[sPzAbt653]

Should it be a "WW3 in eastern Europe" scenario, or just address the invasion of Ukraine?

I imagine that initially we are focusing on Russia's attack on Ukraine. Later we can expand to allow the possibility of the intervention of other nations. I believe that this will make a more interesting 'game', because once the rather predictable 'Special Operation' runs it course, the player may be faced with a number of possibilities that will extend the scenario into an actual war-game.

[cathar1244]

To be fair that's up to the designer.

I agree. But the opening comment indicated a discussion of the scenario, so I gave a suggestion.

My comment was prompted by the selected map, btw.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

One order of battle item that is IMO significant.

Lots of "territorial" units, a consequence of the 2014 "green men" taking over of Crimea by Russia.

Not just Ukraine. Other countries have formed them as well, the goal being to limit as much as possible the amount of national territory seized by an attacking power. Specifically, the countries in E. Europe fear land grabs by Russia which then become "frozen wars" because of nuclear saber-rattling. EU and NATO notwithstanding, the E European countries still distrust the western European countries and fear being sold out in back room deals between large powers.

Cheers

[golden delicious]

One order of battle item that is IMO significant.

Lots of "territorial" units, a consequence of the 2014 "green men" taking over of Crimea by Russia.

Not just Ukraine. Other countries have formed them as well, the goal being to limit as much as possible the amount of national territory seized by an attacking power. Specifically, the countries in E. Europe fear land grabs by Russia which then become "frozen wars" because of nuclear saber-rattling. EU and NATO notwithstanding, the E European countries still distrust the western European countries and fear being sold out in back room deals between large powers.

Cheers

That's interesting. I've seen these units in the OOB but I assumed they were just infantry brigades formed of reservists (as per the Territorial Army over here). What's their actual composition / usage in practice? Do they act as sort of military police tasked with confronting irregular armed forces which infiltrate in or are armed by outside powers?

[cathar1244]

@golden delicious

I have no details on their composition.

As to duties, I think they would function more as security than as reserve infantry.

I think as far as holding territory, they are probably expected to delay an invader until regular military units arrive and establish a line of resistance.

In TOAW, one might depict them as event triggered reinforcements.

I gather one benefit these units provide is that more of a country's populace is exposed to military training and experience to at least a basic degree.

This website discusses such units in the Baltic republics:

https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/os ... id-threats

Cheers

[IslandInland]

The names of generals and some unit designations are included in this article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60767664

[sPzAbt653]

I am using this Wiki as a starting point for the OOB's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... of_Ukraine

I am having an issue with place names. It seems that every place has been renamed since 1945. So each place is taking me a bit of research and guesswork to get the places properly named for 2022. Therefore I ask, is there anybody here that knows enough about Ukraine to be able to rename to current names the towns and cities on the map we are using? I guess not, but it doesn't hurt to ask!

Also, if anyone wants to make a COL file with proper unit colors for both sides, please do.

[cathar1244]

Also, if anyone wants to make a COL file with proper unit colors for both sides, please do.

Be happy to help with the COL file.

Questions.

Should unit colors reflect the national / regional flags, or be the color of military uniforms ?

Should the units of a given side all appear in the same "group of five" for cooperation purposes etc ?

Which countries should be depicted -- everyone on the map, or just Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and the "People's Republics" set up by Russia in eastern Ukraine ?

Cheers

[sPzAbt653]

Should unit colors reflect the national / regional flags, or be the color of military uniforms ?

I think the flags, unless you feel strongly for uniforms.

Should the units of a given side all appear in the same "group of five" for cooperation purposes etc ?

For now I am putting all of them on Free Support. But I'm not familiar with how both sides internal cooperation works, so this may change later. So probably sticking within the five is best. Of course, that is not difficult to change once the other work is done, because all that need to be done is to C/P the details to the proper slot. I think.

Which countries should be depicted -- everyone on the map, or just Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and the "People's Republics" set up by Russia in eastern Ukraine ?

Those will be great for now. Later I'm pretty sure I'll be adding in NATO and non-NATO countries. if you want to do that work now, there is the possibility that we won't go that far. [But I feel strongly that the scenario will need to have the expanded scope in order to make it interesting].

Thanks Bill!

[sPzAbt653]

Looks like Brigade sized units isn't the best idea. This was sort of pointed out earlier. Battalions would seem to be better at this point.

[cathar1244]

Here is a first shot at unit colors. These are only for the conflict as of today. Number indicates placement in .col file (attached to this post). They look okay to me, except I don't care for the way the Russian army color scheme has come out.

I'll be out for a few days, so please review and leave suggestions here or as a PM to me. Thanks!

counters1.jpg (373.9 KiB) Viewed 10246 times

counters2.jpg (102.15 KiB) Viewed 10246 times

counters3.jpg (172.62 KiB) Viewed 10246 times

Cheers

[cathar1244]

Here is a variation with an altered color scheme for the Russian army units. The color scheme for the "Wagner" mercenaries remains unaltered.

The green is the green of their force emblem; blue and white are from the national flag. The tan colored icon foreground color is easier on the eyes than the red of the flag. .col file attached to this post.

Cheers

counters4.jpg (15.99 KiB) Viewed 10200 times

[fulcrum28]

These counters look great!. Personally, I think the Russian Army units should be almost like the mercenaries ones (i.e., dark olive green with white numbers/symbols). Or similar to the Green German infantry ones you made some time ago as a part of large WW2 set for many nations. Indeed, all armor images we have are showing dark green with hand painted white lines... And then change a bit the mercenaries ones, perhaps with red numbers. Adding blue and tan (almost yellow) to the Russian ones, may look a bit similar to Ukranian colors. The Russian aircraft could have some numbers in red. But of course, just an opinion

[cathar1244]

fulcrum28, thanks for the comments.

I'll wait to see how sPzAbt653 reacts and make changes from there.

The color mixing can be a subtle exercise at times.

Check, I noted as well the second Russian scheme is pseudo-Ukrainian in appearance.

Cheers