FITE2 v.1.9 two average players till max winter 42/43 with some new House rulre

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Yep, likewise, the French Army and their wine rations. It was just a drink to go with their meals. I was reading a memoir of a U.S. veteran of the First World War the other day. His comment was that the French drank wine like others drank tea.

Cheers

It might also have been much weaker than the wine we drink today. Again to go back to the Royal Navy the quantity of beer rationed out historically was huge but this was because 1) it was easier to keep beer from being contaminated than water and 2) the strength of the beer was maybe 1% alcohol so even if you drank nothing else all day you would at most be sort of slightly cheerful... this is the origin of the expression "small beer".

[Lobster]

Yes, just enough to get their hearts started.

From: Enemy at the Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad by William Craig

In World War II, each Red Army soldier received a daily ration that included 100 grams of vodka. The liquor was so indispensable to the troops that during the winter months of the battle of Stalingrad when supply boats could not cross the Volga, bottles of vodka had to be parachuted down. For Lieutenant Ivan Bezditko, nicknamed Ivan The Terrible after the 16th century Russian Tsar, 100 grams was simply not enough. To quench his raging thirst for liquor, when men from his artillery battalion died, Ivan The Terrible would report that they were still ‘present and accounted for’ so that when their liquor rations arrived, he would take them all.

Predictably, his scam was easily discovered by the supply officer Major Malygin, because it was impossible for any unit to be in Stalingrad for any lengthy period of time without suffering heavy casualties. Major Malygin telephoned Ivan and threatened to report his fraudulent behavior to Army headquarters. Okay, fair game. But Major Malygin went one step further, probably one step too far, he said he would cut off Ivan The Terrible’s vodka ration.

Ivan screamed over the telephone “If I don’t get it, you’ll get it”. Not intimidated, or probably not getting the threat, Major Malygin went ahead and canceled Ivan’s vodka ration like he’d said. Now infuriated, Ivan The Terrible contacted his 122 mm batteries, gave them a precise set of coordinates and ordered them to open fire.

Three rounds hit the vodka warehouse with Major Malygin still inside, shattering hundreds of bottles. Luckily, the Major survived the ‘friendly fire’ incident, he staggered out of the wreckage to the nearest telephone and contacted headquarters to accuse Ivan The Terrible of this terrible crime.

The person on the other end listened to his story patiently, but replied unsympathetically: “Give him the vodka. He was just awarded the Order of the Red Star, so give it to him.”

[Lobster]

The 100 grams was increased to 200 grams on 11 May 1942 but not for everyone and some only got half that depending on what they were doing. 'Maintain a daily ration of vodka for forward line soldiers in units that have achieved success in combat operations against the German invaders by increasing the norm for the distribution of vodka to the soldiers in these units up to 200 grams per man per day'. Everyone else only got 100 grams and only on holidays.

Then in November 1942 it was changed again. I guess they were running short of vodka. The November formula for issuing vodka got somewhat complicated. Some got wine instead. They even had to return the packaging each month or not get any vodka/wine at all for the following month.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

The 100 grams was increased to 200 grams on 11 May 1942 but not for everyone and some only got half that depending on what they were doing. 'Maintain a daily ration of vodka for forward line soldiers in units that have achieved success in combat operations against the German invaders by increasing the norm for the distribution of vodka to the soldiers in these units up to 200 grams per man per day'. Everyone else only got 100 grams and only on holidays.

200g adds up to a serious amount of alcohol. Even assuming this was fairly weak by modern standards you'd definitely know you'd been drinking.

[golden delicious]

What happened to this? It sounded interesting at the outset.

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Two quite average players pitched against each other usually tends to end up in a Soviet victory or Germans surrendering the game.

So me and my buddy we are very average players. And therefore whoever plays as Germans had long struggled. Therfore we think we have identified the solution to this issue.
We have drawn the following extra House Rules:
1. T1-T10: The Soviet player MUST attack if in contact with German units.
2. T1-T6: The Soviet player cannot blow bridges and MUST move Inf and Mot Corps to meet the Germans.
3. Till August Soviets have just one combat turn.
3. No units with Att:1, AT or Flaks may
blow bridges. Exception: Engineers and HQs.
4. German Auxiliaries might be use freely. But they cannot attack together (e.g. combined Hungro-Rumanian is not allowed).
5. Disregard Naval.
6. No interdictions.
7. Germans are allowed to move extra 4 Inf and 1 Pz/Mot.Divs to Finnland.

I like those.

I think Germans should get some interdiction too, maybe certain units could be able to be on interdict. There is a web site out there you can drill down into some really cool detail on Luftwaffe operations. I'll have to look for the link. Oh here is that URL is

https://www.asisbiz.com/history.html

That would help slow down the crazy train party the Soviets can roll.

[gliz2]

Life happened [:D]

We have restarted couple of times after mud period to work on some house rules and common sense. We have discovered that the only way this scenario currently might work in a long run is when strictly applying the Stalin's doctrine of counterattacks (Stalin believed that constant counter-attacks will lead to some victories which will eventually lead to morale improvement and would prove to Soviets that the Germans can be beaten). While the theory was simple: Soviets must counterattack constantly, the practice needed a lot of polishing.

Also one remark regarding FoW:in '41 the Soviets were almost blind, with some improvement in '42. But their recon was very basic until the end of war. Same as for Germans their recon was based on interrogation of PoWs. Which effectiveness was limited. Hence the possibility of getting almost exact figures on enemy units for Soviets is an overkill. They should see only the basic info of frontline units (potential size and type).

Now we are somewhere in 8 turn. I will start posting again over the coming weekend

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Life happened [:D]

We have restarted couple of times after mud period to work on some house rules and common sense. We have discovered that the only way this scenario currently might work in a long run is when strictly applying the Stalin's doctrine of counterattacks (Stalin believed that constant counter-attacks will lead to some victories which will eventually lead to morale improvement and would prove to Soviets that the Germans can be beaten). While the theory was simple: Soviets must counterattack constantly, the practice needed a lot of polishing.

Also one remark regarding FoW:in '41 the Soviets were almost blind, with some improvement in '42. But their recon was very basic until the end of war. Same as for Germans their recon was based on interrogation of PoWs. Which effectiveness was limited. Hence the possibility of getting almost exact figures on enemy units for Soviets is an overkill. They should see only the basic info of frontline units (potential size and type).

Now we are somewhere in 8 turn. I will start posting again over the coming weekend

Thanks for the update- keep up the good work.

[gliz2]

We are back!
After some polishing of House Rules, trial and error and after restarting couple of times we get this beast going.

Unfortunately after a while we have realized that there are some major flaws in the design:
1. The historical capabilities of the units are not well reflected. This goes for how far motorized/mechanized units can go (on German side). After some studying it seems that the MPs are short of historical values for German mot/mech units. An Infantry unit can cover up to 26-28 hexes (ca. 40 km per day = spot on) on foot while a PZ unit up to 38-42 (ca. 65 km per day which does not even match the combat achievements during Barbarossa not a normal moving speed) hexes and recon ca.50 hexes (ca. 80 km per day = again, much lower then in reality).
2. What intel is available (to Soviets). In 1941 and most of 1942 the Soviets almost entirely relied on rudimentary recon (interrogation of POWs), they had almost none recon capabilities and they attacked more or less blind. But in game they not only can see the exact composition but also opponent's strength. The FoW and Intelligence on weak are still far too good.
3. Maybe a bug or maybe a feature but a recon/panzer units movement costs on major and medium roads are often as much as through the fields. We have tons of cases where unit just moved through the fields as it was as cheap as moving on the major road. Seriously?! [:-]
4. Last but not least the ZOCs. I know this is the engine/board games issue. 5 km per hex and a tiny unit covers 30-40km2 which was more than a late war division. Even a Regiment/Battalion could not hold a line of 10+km which was evident during Barbarossa and even more so during Bagration. This is quite bad design deriving directly from large scale board games (like 10-20 km per hex at divs level).

Other than that we have introduced aggressive stance. This means that both Axis and Soviet must attack when able and especially when bridges, cities or other major points are taken/endangered. Sounds complicated but after a while I'd say we are in 95% on auto mode with this. Examples will be shown in the next posting.

AG Nord has been progressing rapidly and was able to establish some important bridgeheads. The aim is to swipe the Baltics and establish a flank for push on Moscow.


AG Mitte had also been progressing quickly, although Soviet counterattacks did create some confusion. Minsk is the immediate target while Polotsk and Vitebsk should be secured before moving on Smolensk. Also the southern force is pushing to secure bridgeheads on the Berezina river (east of Baranovitch).


AG Sud had a slow start. The enemy seemed to be dug in in many places which took some momentum off the main axis as not enough force was available. As the aim here is to take Crimea and bypass Kiev trying to surprise Soviet command, the current slow-down is not of a major concerns.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

1. The historical capabilities of the units are not well reflected. This goes for how far motorized/mechanized units can go (on German side). After some studying it seems that the MPs are short of historical values for German mot/mech units. An Infantry unit can cover up to 26-28 hexes (ca. 40 km per day = spot on) on foot while a PZ unit up to 38-42 (ca. 65 km per day which does not even match the combat achievements during Barbarossa not a normal moving speed) hexes and recon ca.50 hexes (ca. 80 km per day = again, much lower then in reality).

That's weird. Standard motor movement in TOAW is 560km per week or 80km per day- that's the rate I'd expect from panzer units. Recon should achieve Fast Motor speed is 660km per week or just under 95km per day. However that's without taking into account hex conversion costs, and assuming full supply. If you're really concerned about this then you'll need to look at hex conversion plus the setting which boosts motorised speed on improved roads (although I'm unsure how many of those there were in the western Soviet Union in 1941).

2. What intel is available (to Soviets). In 1941 and most of 1942 the Soviets almost entirely relied on rudimentary recon (interrogation of POWs), they had almost none recon capabilities and they attacked more or less blind. But in game they not only can see the exact composition but also opponent's strength. The FoW and Intelligence on weak are still far too good.

Zero theatre recon should make a big improvement. TOAW will always tell you the exact composition of units in combat reports, nothing you can do here.

3. Maybe a bug or maybe a feature but a recon/panzer units movement costs on major and medium roads are often as much as through the fields. We have tons of cases where unit just moved through the fields as it was as cheap as moving on the major road. Seriously?! [:-]

One has to assume that an "open" hex without mud is either wide open grassland or contains enough dirt roads to make moving across it quite straightforward for tracked vehicles. Wheeled vehicles will pay a movement penalty. If you want moving off-road to always cost more even for tracked vehicles you'd have to drop cropland in every hex.

4. Last but not least the ZOCs. I know this is the engine/board games issue. 5 km per hex and a tiny unit covers 30-40km2 which was more than a late war division. Even a Regiment/Battalion could not hold a line of 10+km which was evident during Barbarossa and even more so during Bagration. This is quite bad design deriving directly from large scale board games (like 10-20 km per hex at divs level).

I think this is essential for an IGOUGO turn. In real terms, the regiment isn't entirely in the hex it's parked in on the map; pickets are likely thrown out to a wider distance and, especially if it has recon assets, enemy units attempting to pass through adjacent hexes are going to find they can't ignore its presence.

A lot of scenarios have the unit scale too low for the map scale, especially on the eastern front, but I think it's entirely reasonable that a regiment can exert a ZOC from one 5km hex into the adjacent hexes.

[Lobster]

German and Soviet infantry divisions pulled artillery by horse. Anything over 30km per day, day after day, and you would soon have too few horses to pull the artillery.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

German and Soviet infantry divisions pulled artillery by horse. Anything over 30km per day, day after day, and you would soon have too few horses to pull the artillery.

As I recall, Manstein's divisions maintained 40km per day during the latter stages of the battle of France.

Naturally, that's at full supply and readiness, and it's hard to maintain those if you're marching into the Russian interior.

[Lobster]

Right. And then there was the 360km (~300 as the crow flies) jaunt to Daugavpils in 100 hours. Of course it took the stupidity of a Soviet Front commander to make that happen.

[gliz2]

Exactly, even closer to 50 km per day.
During ACW on a good roads a 10 pdr horse artillery could cover ca.30 miles.

[gliz2]

Sweet Mary Mother of God, will you ever stop with this silliness[:D]

Imagine if they didn't have to do any fighting?
If with (some) fighting they could cover 360 km of enemy territory (and not all on motorways) then what was the normal movement capacity? Definitely not less.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Sweet Mary Mother of God, will you ever stop with this silliness[:D]

Imagine if they didn't have to do any fighting?
If with (some) fighting they could cover 360 km of enemy territory (and not all on motorways) then what was the normal movement capacity? Definitely not less.

You demand historical results yet don't want historical results. Sad really. [8|]

[gliz2]

Historical results by definition would be exactly the same results as per historical events.

Historical capabilities are the abilities of troops, equipment and leaders.

Therefore your statement is not only wrong but also perverse (as I want the historical capabilities).

To take you example: it should be possible to reach Daugvapils with recon and light armour in 4 days (theoretically, according to the Movement Points). But it is not. Because historical capabilities are not well implemented.
The historical results of reaching Daugvapils in 4 days might not be possible as the turns are half-week and the actual behaviour of players is different from historical.

I have ended this Monthy Pythonian monolog you try to have with me.

If you don't know it I highly recommend watching it. You being Cathy Newman is not a good thing.

[gliz2]

@golden delicious
"A lot of scenarios have the unit scale too low for the map scale, especially on the eastern front, but I think it's entirely reasonable that a regiment can exert a ZOC from one 5km hex into the adjacent hexes."

Depends on many variables and the unit capabilities. Also Soviets had almost non existing communication in '41. They even used flags to coordinate tanks attacking (sometimes even in late '42).
The problem of all sandboxes is that they are sandboxes

PS. My mate did a degree project on board gaming and proposed a solution to ZOC issue in 1-6 km scales. The facing of the unit was always towards front so the front (2 hexes) of the ZOC was 100, the sides (1 hex on each side of 2 hexes) were 50%-80% (bigger-smaller scale) and the back 2 hexes were 30%-66%). The additional factors were the unit experience, leadership, equipment and training.
This enabled punching through two units which were separated by an empty hex.
Results were great but he never got it into digital wargaming.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: gliz2


PS. My mate did a degree project on board gaming

Haha, small world, my BA dissertation was simulating the Battle of France.

[Lobster]

You are the proverbial