US standard railroad gauge - Bureaucrats are forever

[guctony]

Most of you should already know it but I wanted to share

US standard railroad gauge - Bureaucrats are forever.
The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever.

So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's ass!

[RHoenig]

[img][http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5 ... .gif[/IMG][/img]

[ilovestrategy]

That just sounds ass backwards! [:D]

[JeffroK]

I see you havent looked at an Australian railway map then!

Anyway, 4ft 8in makes for 2 narrow horses, the Celtic war chariots were some 2 metres wide, PLUS

http://www.mmdtkw.org/VRomanRoads.html
What about those road ruts? Many human guides and guidebooks will tell you that they were worn into the stones by Roman war chariots. There has also been a long-standing urban legend supposedly linking the standard gauge of railroad tracks to Roman road ruts and the width of the backsides of Roman war-chariot horse teams. More than 2000 Internet sites carry the legend, but it's all bunkum, as both the archeological and railroad communities know. The professionals also know that, while wear may have deepened and broadened some ruts slightly, they were invariably carved into the roads intentionally and by hand to keep traffic going the way it was planned to go. Ruts were carved into narrow sections or through gates like those in the Forum Transitorium or between the famous stepping stones in Pompeii to prevent side-slipping and to keep the wagons "on track". In tight corners, for example at the corner of the Temple of Julius Caesar, carved ruts were curved to nudge the front wheels of four-wheeled carts around: articulated front axles wouldn't be invented until several hundred years after the fall of the Empire. (The lack of articulated front axles was also the real reason that Roman surveyors aimed for strictly straight roads.) Roman roads in the countryside were "high crowned" for drainage, much higher in the middle than at the curbed edges, and ruts were carved into them to keep heavy wagons from sliding toward the edges and tearing up the curb stones when passing in opposite directions. The distance between ruts was essentially irrelevant since the drover would only have to find a rut with wheels on one side to keep his wagon on track. Roman Road Ruts info is contained in http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/pub ... up_of_.htm. The urban legend is debunked at http://www.railway.org/railroadgauge.htm.

Dont try the links, they seem dead!

[guctony]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I see you havent looked at an Australian railway map then!

Anyway, 4ft 8in makes for 2 narrow horses, the Celtic war chariots were some 2 metres wide, PLUS

http://www.mmdtkw.org/VRomanRoads.html
What about those road ruts? Many human guides and guidebooks will tell you that they were worn into the stones by Roman war chariots. There has also been a long-standing urban legend supposedly linking the standard gauge of railroad tracks to Roman road ruts and the width of the backsides of Roman war-chariot horse teams. More than 2000 Internet sites carry the legend, but it's all bunkum, as both the archeological and railroad communities know. The professionals also know that, while wear may have deepened and broadened some ruts slightly, they were invariably carved into the roads intentionally and by hand to keep traffic going the way it was planned to go. Ruts were carved into narrow sections or through gates like those in the Forum Transitorium or between the famous stepping stones in Pompeii to prevent side-slipping and to keep the wagons "on track". In tight corners, for example at the corner of the Temple of Julius Caesar, carved ruts were curved to nudge the front wheels of four-wheeled carts around: articulated front axles wouldn't be invented until several hundred years after the fall of the Empire. (The lack of articulated front axles was also the real reason that Roman surveyors aimed for strictly straight roads.) Roman roads in the countryside were "high crowned" for drainage, much higher in the middle than at the curbed edges, and ruts were carved into them to keep heavy wagons from sliding toward the edges and tearing up the curb stones when passing in opposite directions. The distance between ruts was essentially irrelevant since the drover would only have to find a rut with wheels on one side to keep his wagon on track. Roman Road Ruts info is contained in http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/pub ... up_of_.htm. The urban legend is debunked at http://www.railway.org/railroadgauge.htm.

Dont try the links, they seem dead!

Thanks it become more educative then it seemed.

[Numdydar]

Here is a better link that works [:)]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... ariot-ruts

Which highlights that the OP is NOT true. Although it does make a good story.

[USSAmerica]

So what is the true origin of the 4' 8.5" standard railroad gauge?  [:)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: guctony

Most of you should already know it but I wanted to share

US standard railroad gauge - Bureaucrats are forever.
The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever.

So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's ass!

Well, just for the record. We American's have been led by many horse asses over the years. Nothing new here......[;)]

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: USS America

So what is the true origin of the 4' 8.5" standard railroad gauge?  [:)]

From the link I provided above

"What about Roman war chariots and rutted roads? Roman "rutways," many of which were purposely built to standard dimensions, were close to modern railroad tracks in width. For example, the rutways at the buried cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum averaged four-foot-nine center to center, with a gauge of maybe four-foot-six. But there's no direct connection between Roman rutways and 18th-century tramways. The designers of each were dealing with a similar problem, namely hauling wheeled vehicles behind draft animals. So it's not surprising they came up with similar results. (Thanks to University of Munich economic historian Douglas Puffert, an expert on railroad gauge, for kind assistance in tracing this story.)"

So the railway width and the wagon wheel width are not connected at all. They are similar because, as noted above, both tramways and Roman wagons "...were dealing with a similar problem, namely hauling wheeled vehicles behind draft animals."

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: USS America

So what is the true origin of the 4' 8.5" standard railroad gauge?  [:)]

It is probably some equation regarding weight, wheel size, engine power, speed, cost divided by a random number.

We have at least 3 major guages, with a few minor freight tramways and Melbourne's Tram network.

[JeffroK]

From Wiki

Despite early attempts at coordination, Australia has three different rail gauges in one country. The then three mainland colonies adopted 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) in 1848, with some states passing legislation to that effect.[13] Then there was a change to 1,600 mm (5 ft 3 in) at the instigation of New South Wales, which was agreed to by those then three states. Then New South Wales reverted to standard gauge while Victoria and South Australia stayed with broad gauge, having ordered rolling stock to that gauge. Queensland was built with 1,067 mm (3 ft 6 in) to save costs. Narrow gauge worked well enough for light traffic to persuade Tasmania, Western Australia and parts of South Australia to follow suit. Dual and standard gauge lines have been introduced to the main interstate routes. Pilbara iron ore railways have always been standard gauge.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: guctony

Most of you should already know it but I wanted to share

US standard railroad gauge - Bureaucrats are forever.
The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever.

So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's ass!

I think it is ironic how VASTLY similar the majority of things are here in the US in comparison to England....yet we wanted independence many years ago...

[Schanilec]

So you want the original revised revision revised?[;)] A standard in my world.

[oldman45]

I like the OP's version. Makes a much better story [;)]

[zzodr]

I read the OP's topic a few years ago.. it is funny and I like it, but it isn't true.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

[JeffroK]

I'm trying to work out how to comment about what is behind a horses arse without being rude or political.
 
Sorry, failed.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Well, just for the record. We American's have been led by many horse asses over the years. Nothing new here......[;)]

You mean...even before the advent of fast food culture?

Sorry, couldn´t resist.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: guctony

Most of you should already know it but I wanted to share

US standard railroad gauge - Bureaucrats are forever.
The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever.

So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's ass!

Well, just for the record. We American's have been led by many horse asses over the years. Nothing new here......[;)]

We do this on purpose,sometimes with a most reckless abandon, as if ignorance and stupidity were virtue.

We Americans like to show off that way, as we tend to poke fun of ourselves on occasion, even at the expense of putting absolute clowns in our White House......(Don't get me started on Chester A Arthur.)[:D]

[ckammp]

Chester A. Arthur was no clown.

He enacted important and much-needed civil service reform, he was a staunch opponent of racist anti-Chinese immigration laws, and (perhaps of most importance to this forum) he oversaw the rebirth of the US Navy, which at the time (1882) consisted of only 52 mostly obsolete ships.

And all this was accomplished in less than one full term in office, and with Arthur in poor health. (He would die less than 2 years after leaving office)

It is unfortunate that a man of his ability is so unappreciated today.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: USS America

So what is the true origin of the 4' 8.5" standard railroad gauge?  [:)]

It is probably some equation regarding weight, wheel size, engine power, speed, cost divided by a random number.

We have at least 3 major guages, with a few minor freight tramways and Melbourne's Tram network.

You also have to take height, or rather top-heaviness into consideration as well.

I also wonder, and I've never measured it out, but what is the standard (or average) lateral wheelbase of a car? Is it also similar to the rail gauge?