Couple Questions on Paratroopers in Winter Zone

[Icedawg]

Has anyone tried paradropping airborne troops during the winter months in the cold zone portion of the map? Does it result in huge ops losses in aircraft (like the manual says should be the case)? Does it result in high casualties/disruption/fatigue in the paradropped unit?

Next, if the answer to either or both of the questions above is "no", I am thinking of using paratroopers to capture parts of the Aleutians during winter months. Would this be a bit "gamey", or, for those who hate that term, "unrealistic"?

[Icedawg]

Over 100 views and no replies.

I'll change the question up and make it more personal. Hopefully that will get the thoughts flowing a bit better.

Imagine your opponent airdropped paras in the Aleutians in the middle of January. Would you a) get miffed and think it was a very gamey/unrealistic tactic, b) do the same to him given a chance, or c) not really care.

[jeffk3510]

I wouldn't let it bother me if my opponent did it. I woulnd't consider it gamey. Not much is gamey to me anyways...

[DOCUP]

Doing a quick search on weather in the Aluetions for Jan show low level fog and cloud cover with high winds.  Not very good for airborne ops.  I wouldn't want to exit a bird in those conditions.  But then again not everyday has those conditions.  I would say no for the airborne invasion. 

[CV 2]

I was a paratrooper for 4 years (training Rangers and Special Forces for 2 1/2 of that) and I was in an artic warfare unit for 6 years after that, I personally never jumped in snow. But I found something from a guy in 10th special forces group.

I would say after reading it, that air drops into unoccupied bases should be allowed, but opposed landings should not be, regardless of the number of troopers dropped.

Jumping in snow? A string at the paratrooper board and the fact that we have 4" of new snow and it's still coming down here at home got me to thinking about winter airborne operations that I participated in. I jumped onto snow covered DZs (Drop Zones) several times but here is an account of the deepest snow I ever landed in.

Dumbas, Norway is way the hell up there within that arctic circle. Every Feb. 1st Bn., 10th sent two teams to attend the Norwegian Army winter warfare training school there. Everything we would use during the 2+ week course we had to jump in but each man wrapped a good bottle of booze, purchased at the exchange before we left and jumped it in because the Norwegians appreciated it so much. Even back in the late 80's a liter of Jack Danials cost over $60.00 in Norway.

For various reasons (very short "days" perhaps and the always cold temps) the snow up there remains very powdery for a long time after it falls during the winter. Our 170 cm long alpine touring skis just weren't made to float on several feet of powder and would be virtually useless so we used their skis which were very wide and long boats really. We did however jump snowshoes (no not wearing them) because that was the only way we would get off the DZ.

Landing in powdery snow that is 6 feet deep with only older slightly harder snow to stand on is quite an experience. You really don't do a real PLF, but just kind of sink in it and stop. Your rucksack disappears in it before you hit and then your buried in it and kind of work to stand up, which is more difficult than one might think, and dig yourself out. Then, after your out of your harness you have to work your way to your rucksack to get your snow shoes. It took the better part of 1/2 an hour to just get your stuff together so you could start to move off the DZ.

Among the various things we did in their training was construct a company sized snow cave and stayed in it a couple of days. I was surprised at how nice it really was having only made small one and two man caves before that. We also did a Biathlon, skiing for speed along a 24 kilometer (1 K = 6/10ths of a mile) with target shooting stations spaced along it every 4 kilometers. The Norwegian Army created what we know as an Olympic winter sport in the 1800s, to train their soldiers for winter fighting. I did pretty well coming in 15th out of maybe 50 that participated (24 Americans plus some Norwegian Army people. The two guys that came in first were on the Norwegian Olympic team and they just blew everyone away.

[CaptDave]

I'd guess the lack of replies is because no one has tried it.

As for what my response would be, I'm of the Bullwinkle persuasion -- the game allows it, it's within the rules, so there's nothing to complain about.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

I was a paratrooper for 4 years (training Rangers and Special Forces for 2 1/2 of that) and I was in an artic warfare unit for 6 years after that, I personally never jumped in snow. But I found something from a guy in 10th special forces group.

I would say after reading it, that air drops into unoccupied bases should be allowed, but opposed landings should not be, regardless of the number of troopers dropped.

I guess this decides it. Someone who actually has jumped out of a plane in arctic conditions - kind of tough to argue with a person with real world experience in the matter.

I like the compromise approach - really seems to make sense. Thanks CV 2.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

I'd guess the lack of replies is because no one has tried it.

As for what my response would be, I'm of the Bullwinkle persuasion -- the game allows it, it's within the rules, so there's nothing to complain about.

Yeah, I guess nobody else is nuts enough to think of this approach. But hey, I think outside the box - sometimes way outside.

I'm more of the ChickenBoy persuasion - the developers can't possibly model every possible thing players might come up with, so HRs are sometimes in order if both players prefer a very realistic game. It's very important for both players to be on the same wavelength. Otherwise, their different expectations may ruin their game.

[Sardaukar]

Jumping into snow is not that big deal, Finnish Defence Forces Paratroopers do it all the time (even I have done it), especially during winter survival course in Lapland. Moving in snow is bit different matter and requires good skis (or snow shoes, but we don't use those, too slow).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5se0YS0mzfc

see 2:55 on about winter operations.

Also something that people might find interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6FjJYcEj_A

[Symon]

319th was AFAR, so I was 'Airborne' and had to qualify. Got my qualification wings, but never really liked jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. And never had to jump in combat. Oh well. Heard the green weenies were doing hi-los into tropical canopies. Cool. Never heard of drops configured into arctic conditions. Prolly some special exercises, arctic configured by deployed units and outside the scale of the establishment. Really cool. Always interested in paradigms that push the envelope. Maybe CV2 can give us some A-stats on his arctic drops, please? I, for one, would like it. John

[bradfordkay]

Since colder air is more dense, does a drop in artic conditions give a softer landing (not counting the snow, smart@sses)?

[rockmedic109]

I didn't consider the air density. More disruption from being spread out?

[topeverest]

As the allied player, I have used paratroopers in Aleuts in winter. I do not recall abhorent operational losses if done correctly. The key is to execute in a clear weather turn. Wait until the forecast is for clear IMHO.

[CV 2]

ORIGINAL: Symon

319th was AFAR, so I was 'Airborne' and had to qualify. Got my qualification wings, but never really liked jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. And never had to jump in combat. Oh well. Heard the green weenies were doing hi-los into tropical canopies. Cool. Never heard of drops configured into arctic conditions. Prolly some special exercises, arctic configured by deployed units and outside the scale of the establishment. Really cool. Always interested in paradigms that push the envelope. Maybe CV2 can give us some A-stats on his arctic drops, please? I, for one, would like it. John

I have never jumped into a snow covered LZ. I was in the 82nd at Bragg when I first got out of jump school, and transferred to the Rangers shortly after (they were hurting for medics). And a couple of months after that, I was attached to 1st Ranger company (the Ranger school cadre) at Ft Benning and we trained Rangers and Special Forces (and SEALs, and Force Recon, and just about everything else including Israelis and Chinese). When I enlisted in the active reserves, I was assigned to the 205th Inf bde which was part of the 6th div in Alaska (3rd of the 3rd was assigned to Ft Snelling Mn. which was my unit). We were the last straight-leg infantry unit in the army. Our 2 week "summer camps" were in Feb in Alaska. Everywhere we went, we got air-lifted in by Huey, then snow-shoed it to where ever or whatever we were doing from there.

When the birds came in, they generally had to come in hot, because if they hovered at all, it would white out and the pilots couldnt see. So every landing was like we were coming into a hot LZ and we jumped from the skids.

The thing I posted above was a text I found written by a guy in the 10 special forces group.

[geofflambert]

The Soviets didn't use parachutes, they just pushed the guys out of the planes and a surprisingly large number would survive falling into the snow. [X(]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The Soviets didn't use parachutes, they just pushed the guys out of the planes and a surprisingly large number would survive falling into the snow. [X(]

Those were EXTREMELY low level drops!

[Canoerebel]

I saw it done in Where Eagles Dare!

[pnzrgnral]

Referring to the OP: whether it's gamey isn't the point. If you have the troops and a/c available, within range, then you take the chance with the die rolls. Reality: Jumping in snow isn't much of an issue, as CV2 stated. I jumped in snow twice on an Arctic deployment at Ft Wainwright, AK in '86, and it makes for a soft landing. Beats landing on a hardtop airstrip or trees anytime. The problems faced in Arctic conditions, ESPECIALLY in WWII, are visibility and winds. Granted, put together a big enough operation when the weather is marginal at best, and the jump will be a "go" (Normandy). Trying to identify a drop zone, from the air, when fog or low cloud layer inhibits safe flying - makes for lots of fun when flying around Aleutian/Alaskan mountains - makes it impossible to jump. Doing so under such circumstances can cause entire sticks of 'troopers to literally "disappear." Throw in heavy winds and even if they hit the DZ successfully, they're scatterred with a high injury rate. Look at it this way...if you've done any reading on the air war in the Aleutians, you'll know that air ops were problematic at best. Heavy operational losses that didn't involve contact with the enemy - all due to weather. As for my own games, I NEVER employ airborne ops in the Aleutians (one of my very few personal house rules), but I can understand how some would, because the game permits. Icedawg, thanks for posting.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: pnzrgnral

Referring to the OP: whether it's gamey isn't the point. If you have the troops and a/c available, within range, then you take the chance with the die rolls. Reality: Jumping in snow isn't much of an issue, as CV2 stated. I jumped in snow twice on an Arctic deployment at Ft Wainwright, AK in '86, and it makes for a soft landing. Beats landing on a hardtop airstrip or trees anytime. The problems faced in Arctic conditions, ESPECIALLY in WWII, are visibility and winds. Granted, put together a big enough operation when the weather is marginal at best, and the jump will be a "go" (Normandy). Trying to identify a drop zone, from the air, when fog or low cloud layer inhibits safe flying - makes for lots of fun when flying around Aleutian/Alaskan mountains - makes it impossible to jump. Doing so under such circumstances can cause entire sticks of 'troopers to literally "disappear." Throw in heavy winds and even if they hit the DZ successfully, they're scatterred with a high injury rate. Look at it this way...if you've done any reading on the air war in the Aleutians, you'll know that air ops were problematic at best. Heavy operational losses that didn't involve contact with the enemy - all due to weather. As for my own games, I NEVER employ airborne ops in the Aleutians (one of my very few personal house rules), but I can understand how some would, because the game permits. Icedawg, thanks for posting.

Thanks for the reply pnzrgnral, but to me, the gameyness is the point entirely. I don't like doing unrealistic things even though the game allows them. That's why I often come to this forum - to ask about whether a tactic I am considering employing could possibly have been utilized in the real world. I understand this is a game, but I try to keep things as true to real life as possible. And, since I don't have much understanding of para ops, I figured I'd ask away and get responses from the experts. Yet again, you guys have been of great assistance. Thanks a lot!