Troubling US Navy review finds widespread shortfalls in basic seamanship

[witpqs]

And: I am out of this thread.

[Rusty1961]

Sorry, USN officers Kara Hultgreen was killed due to affirmative action. I know you all know who she was. If you don't, google her name and see what a travesty it was to promoter her to Flight Officer.

Waving your hands and declaring me wrong when we know I'm correct doesn't change anything.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

And: I am out of this thread.

+1 And so am I.

[bobdina]

Can't be bothered either, I have much better things to do then read this drivel.

[wegman58]

At 1:30 in the morning, they would be sleeping. Getting ready (or sleeping) at 5 am, I think I remember reveille at 6 am, but it's been 40 years since I was shipboard.

And you do NOT stint on Sea and Anchor detail - long and tiring - yes, but...

And don't they have the 'Collision Alarm' any more?

Scariest shipboard moment was, "Bos'n, stand by the collision alarm." I was on an ammo ship, we had an aircraft carrier to port and a frigate botched the approach on the starboard side. WAY too close to comfort, we could see the looks on the faces of the frigate's bridge crew.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Sorry, USN officers Kara Hultgreen was killed due to affirmative action. I know you all know who she was. If you don't, google her name and see what a travesty it was to promoter her to Flight Officer.

Waving your hands and declaring me wrong when we know I'm correct doesn't change anything.

...

I'm sorry (am I?), but you're not correct. You are dead wrong. Assuming that's your sincere belief ([8|]), and knowing what I do about how humans work, I'm not even going to bother wasting my time explaining why because you'll just "wave your hands" and continue on.

Thanks for the glimpse of your character, it's always good to know who I'm talking with.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Sorry, USN officers Kara Hultgreen was killed due to affirmative action. I know you all know who she was. If you don't, google her name and see what a travesty it was to promoter her to Flight Officer.

Waving your hands and declaring me wrong when we know I'm correct doesn't change anything.

...

I'm sorry (am I?), but you're not correct. You are dead wrong. Assuming that's your sincere belief ([8|]), and knowing what I do about how humans work, I'm not even going to bother wasting my time explaining why because you'll just "wave your hands" and continue on.

Thanks for the glimpse of your character, it's always good to know who I'm talking with.

Right back at you. The feeling is mutual.

[jamesjohns]

To Rusty1961

I just had to comment about the affirmative action post you made.

First, there are plenty of other places on internet to discuss political view points. Let’s try to keep politics out of this board; it would ruin a wonderful message board. I am all for debating P51 vs P47, what would have happened if Japan invaded New Zealand, or was Douglas McArthur over or under rated? We are united by our enjoyment of an amazing game with WITPAE and lets keep it to that.

Second, I am curious about your own military experience, if you have served wondering what branch, years you where in and positions? Although I was not in the Navy, I did serve as an Infantry and Cav Enlisted and Officer for 20 years from mid 80’s to mid 00’s. I had the privillage of working with and leading people from all different backgrounds from around the US and other countries. I never felt I was judged on anything other than my ability to do the job assigned me. Having been in command positions, affirmative action was never considered when selecting people for tasks, promotions or awards. It was can they do the job and how good are they at it.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: Sigma8510

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




What has that got to do with it?

Everything.

As a former Navy Surface Warfare Officer with 26 years of service to our country, I take great offense at what you are implying. Not to mention the fact that I probably meet your criteria for being a part of “affirmative action”. Your comments speak volumes on your level of respect for all who serve, regardless of race, creed, or color. Lucky for you, most service members would give their life to protect your freedoms.

If you needed affirmative action to reach the position you have then you are no good enough for (any) navy in that position.
I have no doubt that so called "afirmative action" which is discrimination and will never end because it gives political media power has much to due with current state of the US Navy, It made it much more political, that means that officers of political bent being promoted, people that essentially care about status and appearances. I just needed to see US male sailors on women high heels to know where the service was going on and what were sizeable part its priorities.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: Sigma8510

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





Everything.

As a former Navy Surface Warfare Officer with 26 years of service to our country, I take great offense at what you are implying. Not to mention the fact that I probably meet your criteria for being a part of “affirmative action”. Your comments speak volumes on your level of respect for all who serve, regardless of race, creed, or color. Lucky for you, most service members would give their life to protect your freedoms.

If you needed affirmative action to reach the position you have then you are no good enough for (any) navy in that position.
I have no doubt that so called "afirmative action" which is discrimination and will never end because it gives political media power has much to due with current state of the US Navy, It made it much more political, that means that officers of political bent being promoted, people that essentially care about status and appearances. I just needed to see US male sailors on women high heels to know where the service was going on and what were sizeable part its priorities.

He did *not* say he "needed affirmative action" to reach anything; it was an oblique was of saying he is a member of a minority population.

[BBfanboy]

... and there would be no "affirmative action" programs if it were not for the discrimination that held these people down in the first place. It's about re-levelling the playing field but it doesn't seem so great from the point of view of those who formerly had the advantages. No doubt the program will fade away when it is no longer needed.

[AW1Steve]

I can't say what happened , I wasn't there. But I DO know , that in the past , when the USN was suffering from shortages (especially MONEY) , training suffered , and was replaced by that old (and horrible) tradition of "gun-decking". It's not unlike the Russians who under the soviet system would say amongst themselves, "as long as you PRETEND to pay us, we will PRETEND to work".


When the pressure becomes extreme , and the Navy is short of everything but criticism , getting the paperwork satisfactory becomes far more important to one's career then the actual condition of the ship, or crew. This is sounding more and more like the 1970's Navy. [:(]

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: Sigma8510


As a former Navy Surface Warfare Officer with 26 years of service to our country, I take great offense at what you are implying. Not to mention the fact that I probably meet your criteria for being a part of “affirmative action”. Your comments speak volumes on your level of respect for all who serve, regardless of race, creed, or color. Lucky for you, most service members would give their life to protect your freedoms.

If you needed affirmative action to reach the position you have then you are no good enough for (any) navy in that position.
I have no doubt that so called "afirmative action" which is discrimination and will never end because it gives political media power has much to due with current state of the US Navy, It made it much more political, that means that officers of political bent being promoted, people that essentially care about status and appearances. I just needed to see US male sailors on women high heels to know where the service was going on and what were sizeable part its priorities.

He did *not* say he "needed affirmative action" to reach anything; it was an oblique was of saying he is a member of a minority population.

Everyone is a minority person. Just not designed political minorities. There are no favors for the minorities that like to play wargames like us. Likewise is there affirmative action for ugly persons?
or for socially awkward persons? or Asian persons in USA? or old persons?
No. Not yet. But it would be when political media makes it politically profitable, then turns into a "industry".

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I can't say what happened , I wasn't there. But I DO know , that in the past , when the USN was suffering from shortages (especially MONEY) , training suffered , and was replaced by that old (and horrible) tradition of "gun-decking". It's not unlike the Russians who under the soviet system would say amongst themselves, "as long as you PRETEND to pay us, we will PRETEND to work".


When the pressure becomes extreme , and the Navy is short of everything but criticism , getting the paperwork satisfactory becomes far more important to one's career then the actual condition of the ship, or crew. This is sounding more and more like the 1970's Navy. [:(]

Articles about some of the incidents which led up to this latest study pointed out some details about that in the current situation.

As I said, I do not envy them dealing with the pressures which led to this.

[wdolson]

I get "Enter Your Message Here" messages sometimes which are blank. I think this may come from clicking on the "Report" button, but I can't be sure. I got one this evening and I suspect it might be from comments on this thread. Maybe cutting out the talk about affirmative action would be a good idea.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: jamesjohns

To Rusty1961

I just had to comment about the affirmative action post you made.

First, there are plenty of other places on internet to discuss political view points. Let’s try to keep politics out of this board; it would ruin a wonderful message board. I am all for debating P51 vs P47, what would have happened if Japan invaded New Zealand, or was Douglas McArthur over or under rated? We are united by our enjoyment of an amazing game with WITPAE and lets keep it to that.

Second, I am curious about your own military experience, if you have served wondering what branch, years you where in and positions? Although I was not in the Navy, I did serve as an Infantry and Cav Enlisted and Officer for 20 years from mid 80’s to mid 00’s. I had the privillage of working with and leading people from all different backgrounds from around the US and other countries. I never felt I was judged on anything other than my ability to do the job assigned me. Having been in command positions, affirmative action was never considered when selecting people for tasks, promotions or awards. It was can they do the job and how good are they at it.

I'm sorry, I'm not the original poster. I'm all for people of every background be allowed to be the best they can be, but to promote someone like Kara Hultgreen to flight officer when she was unqualified is wrong, and deadly. Is that how far down the rabbit hole we've gone when you can't speak the truth???

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I get "Enter Your Message Here" messages sometimes which are blank. I think this may come from clicking on the "Report" button, but I can't be sure. I got one this evening and I suspect it might be from comments on this thread. Maybe cutting out the talk about affirmative action would be a good idea.

Wait, so I shouldn't mention Kara Hultgreen and her death, which happened, in relation to the OP article???? I think you should take a look at posting off-topic content instead of silencing the truth.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I get "Enter Your Message Here" messages sometimes which are blank. I think this may come from clicking on the "Report" button, but I can't be sure. I got one this evening and I suspect it might be from comments on this thread. Maybe cutting out the talk about affirmative action would be a good idea.

Wait, so I shouldn't mention Kara Hultgreen and her death, which happened, in relation to the OP article???? I think you should take a look at posting off-topic content instead of silencing the truth.

Please do not confuse your opinion with 'truth'. They may or may not be the same.

[tarkalak]

So for the second incident:
1. The moved the controls from one console to another and messed it up without noticing.
2. The second guy wanted to change the speed on both screws but ended up changing only one.

Don't they have indicators for this stuff on their consoles?

This whole thing sounds like a very bad HMI* design of the consoles is a big part of the problem.

*Human-machine interface

[AW1Steve]

OK. The question about Kara Hultgreen was right...and wrong. I was a Naval Aircrewman from 1977 till 2001. The period of Hultgreen's accident was one of tremendous competition between the services (especially Navy and Air Force) as to who could field female combat aircrew the fastest. The president , and especially the 1st lady , had made advancing the cause of women in the military to the forefront of his administration. And the services were busting themselves to comply. No real surprise. BUT....., do you recall my previous post about "gun decking?". It was present here too. There was a whole sale rush to beat the "other services" by getting "the 1st female" in each category. ANY female. Women already in the pipeline were "fast tracked" and their training time "compressed" where ever possible. Anything to bet the "other service". A great many instructors and senior mid level officers were afraid that these women were being set up to fail. A great many people feel that "Revlon" Kara Hultgren was one of them. From all accounts a incredibly gifted pilot , who was rushed. And some skills take time to develop, no matter how gifted the student.

Most of the women were already in the pipeline , or had graduated to non-combat aircraft. All they needed was a "transition period" at the RAG (replacement air group) to learn their aircraft , then a year or so as a "nugget" (junior flyer that needed seasoning... and a year or so in the squadron and a cruise would generally do it). I served with many such women NFO's , pilots and aircrew who did great (and I cheerfully would have and still would fly into combat with them). Usually older , experienced women , like their male counterparts would do just fine.

One notable exception were junior enlisted female air crew candidates. A 17 year is never as mature as a 24 year old college graduate. But SAR swimming is a young , strong persons job. And a great many young women were pushed at that job without really considering physical strength , endurance or determination. Admission standards were not enforced and strongly as they should have been. And a great many women were set up to fail.

Later , when slightly older , more seasoned candidates were selected , and given time to build up and prepare for the challenge , they did just fine.


The point is , that was an ugly , unfair period in which scoring in the "battle for the 1st" by people in leadership positions made this period a very , very disgraceful transition. The services SHOULD have done better. And those women who picked up the gauntlet and tried to meet the challenge should be admired. They should have been given a better chance and opportunity. Instead the services "threw them against the wall" and figured if they threw enough some would stick. You don't do that to human beings. Period.



This I think is what some of the postings meant by "affirmative action" run amuck. What they should have said , was "badly, badly administrated.

Sorry if I ruffled feathers. But I honestly felt it need to be said. [:(]