How to hunt Subs

[ggeilman]

Any suggestions on how to hunt subs early in the war? It is 1/42 and I am literally having to park AKs at Sydney and Brisbane right now. I count no less than 5 subs off Sydney and 2 off Brisbane that I can detect. I can find them, but no luck in sinking more than one. Air ASW has been about worthless so far. Even trying to use B17s in that role! Hoping the Banshees can get up to speed quickly. I have a couple of level 8 destroyers there now with 3 out of Aden. Think I will bring two of them down and leave one around India.

[btd64]

Air patrols will keep the enemy subs under water, so setup ASW air patrols. They may not hit anything but they can't fire torpedoes if they can't see the target....GP

[Evoken]

You need properly trained pilots to reliably hit enemy subs from air. Try to train your squadrons to 70 ASW Skill.

In my experience as allies i found the A-29 Hudson(and commonwealth variants) as my best early game ASW plane. 70 ASW skill pilots flying at 1k feet %80 ASW , 20%Rest they will sink or cripple enemy subs in a week.

[ggeilman]

I have 2 flights of B17s, Wirraways and Seagulls running at Sydney and Hudsons and Wirraways at Brisbane. That is how I am finding them, but it is not stopping them from sinking AKs with impunity even when they have escorts:( The subs hunt mostly at night, grrr
grr

70% would be really nice, but I need ASW now. Put the Hudson's at Melbourne on training. Maybe they will be ready by March. The ones at Brisbane will just have to get OJT even though they are on the 20s. I feel like Frank Sinatra shooting soda bottles at them, lol!

[Macclan5]

It does seem that ASW is a mis-understood function of the game.

Perhaps early in the war more so that latter when a number of ships get substantial ASW improvements through upgrades.

(i) The function of ASW is not solely sinking enemy subs.

(ii) spotting is also critical as it allows your ships / convoys from and to ports to evade and or defend

(iii) therefore 'suppression' is a 'benefit' of active search and patrols.

(iv) always have escorts with ASW capabilities for your convoys !

As suggested above and perhaps specifically to Australia

- Get your Wirraways or other airframes on ASW patrol / 1000 ft / 80 / 10 train / 10 rest - have lots of land based spotting support

- Get your AMs on near coastal patrols and even in harbor patrols - trust me the IJN may attack you in harbor.

[Mercenary]

ORIGINAL: ggeilman
Any suggestions on how to hunt subs early in the war?.

Guaranteed - no way.

- While the pilots do not have ASW experience, train them. (Remember! Aircraft performing the ASW function flies at a shorter distance. You put 4 hexa, they fly to 2).

- You can put aviation on a regular sea search. At low altitudes, they still find a submarine. And sometimes they even attack.

- Create ASW transport sea formations from everything that has depth charges. AMc, DMS, PG, and so on. Let them patrol.

[Mercenary]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5 trust me the IJN may attack you in harbor.

Oh! This is my favorite when I was an ally [:)] The very first thing my submarines did was engage in terrorism in the port of Samah against a Japanese player [:)]

[Kull]

You have too many units "working the problem". Most of those air units need to be in Training. You shouldn't have more than one set of Wirraways or Hudsons active at Sydney and Brisbane, while everybody else is training. At least in the beginning, as those training units start to increase their skills into the 50's (or even mid-40s), rotate them to the "front" and send the guys in the 20's into training mode. The "OJT plan" will take for-frickin-ever, so don't go there. All you should expect is for your air units to spot the subs, so that your convoys and surface ASW patrols know they are are around. Will you lose some ships? Absolutely, that's just how it is. Try to make up for that by running fewer - but larger - convoys. Don't give those subs too many bites at the apple.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

I have 2 flights of B17s, Wirraways and Seagulls running at Sydney and Hudsons and Wirraways at Brisbane. That is how I am finding them, but it is not stopping them from sinking AKs with impunity even when they have escorts:( The subs hunt mostly at night, grrr
grr

70% would be really nice, but I need ASW now. Put the Hudson's at Melbourne on training. Maybe they will be ready by March. The ones at Brisbane will just have to get OJT even though they are on the 20s. I feel like Frank Sinatra shooting soda bottles at them, lol!

Use night NavS....GP

[Moltrey]

To add another related aspect gg:

When starting a Allied Cmpn you need to work out a plan for how many DDs and their variant cousins (DMS, KV, etc.) to redeploy from Pearl to the West Coast and Australian East Coast (& later West Coast). I started a thread (over in the "War Room" sub-forum) on Allied DD Deployment that has some worthwhile advice in it you should read from our more experienced players on the forum. I undertrained my DDs and didn't have enough out at sea doing training myself. Something I am going to work on soon.
If you can arrange it (which is a big IF in December, 1941) try to have some of those air assets doing Naval Search Ops, with some at night as btd64 recommends.

I plan on restarting my Allied Cmpn next week after I get my new PC reconfigured and WITP:AE reloaded with SeaBees. That and AndyMac's latest AI files. Good times!

[GetAssista]

Early war those buggers are the next major threat apart from KB. But not much you can do early, few proper ASW ships and no trained pilots.

Form your AKs/APs into largish convoys and escort them with whatever available with ASW rating >0 until you are out of the risk zone (area around major ports or where your nav search spotted some subs). Return the short legged escorts back for another convoy to escort out or to meet forward. Pay attention to SigInt and avoid sub concentrations. Shift your cargo routes regularly

[Ian R]

This is my archival summary extracted from various threads containing good advice on this subject

1- Searching aircraft (nav search) make subs dive, which reduces their chance of sighting a target. Search aircraft flying more than 12 hexes range are not very effective (per Alfred). The best ASW weapon you will ever have is a PB, spotting submarines with radar. Occasionally they bomb one as well. I once likened this to having more loiter time and received a dressing down from Alfred, because the code doesn't directly model loiter time.

2- ASW searching aircraft have more chance of attacking, and fly a shorter search pattern. ASW aircraft seem to be more effective down low (i.e. 1-2000 feet).

3. If you have your cargo TFs on 'safer' setting, they will adjust their course to go around spotted subs. They may do it on 'normal' setting as well. Nav skill oif the TF commodore helps here.

4. ASW TFs out in the wide blue ocean operating in isolation hardly ever find a sub that doesn't want to find them and attack them. The various short-legged PC/SC types are best deployed in littoral waters, under your ASW air screen, patrolling outside your major ports to jump on sighted subs. They also attract the attention of aggressive sub commanders who expend scarce torpedoes on them, and often miss because they are small agile targets.

5. ASW TFs can also be usefully deployed in concert with a cargo TF moving through sub infested waters, i.e., set to follow the latter at zero range, with react set to about 3, if the TF already has at least two escorts.

6. Two ASW ships is the minimum for any escort element in a cargo TF or an ASW TF. In case one eats a torpedo.

7. Three ASW vessels is a good number for escort elements in a cargo TF, or an ASW TF. (Anecdotal observation of several forumites)

8. Four ASW vessels is a waste of scarce commodities early war for diminishing marginal returns, but late war the allies can afford it. Note that one ship getting to 1/3rd ASW ammo might cause the TF to return home to replenish; or maybe it's all getting to 1/3rd - either way you have ships sailing back and forth empty or full ships going home and inefficient use of resources.

9. Do not use the small SC type vessels as long range convoy escorts. They are liable to be swamped and founder in a storm somewhere east of Pago Pago.

10. In order to save scarce PPs put a good commander - good nav skill and secondarily aggression - in about a third of your ASW ships and have some system to remember which ones have the hard chargers. Always pick them last of the three so that they run the TF as well. Cargo TFs are harder to organise, because depending on what you are using as escorts, a big tanker captain might be the TF commander.

11. When organising littoral ASW TFs to operate outside the big ports (CONUS, SE Oz, Karachi, Colombo, PH typically) -

(a) make leg three of the patrol the port with full refuel

(b) give them a linger there of at least 4 days so they can sit still and repair some system damage

(c) that also gives you time to check them and swap ships in/out now and again without having to be OCD about it

12. The best "ASW" TF you can ever deploy is actually a large combat TF with a dozen or more DD or DE that runs over an enemy sub. Often the aggressive sub commander fires six torpedoes at a DD and misses, and is then depth charged into oblivion. Sometimes a capital ship gets hit and has to go back to the shipyard (or worse), but you can't fight a war without losing some ships, to paraphrase Admiral King. A variation on this is to wastefully put a dozen high ASW vessels with a large cargo TF and deliberately sail it where there is a concentration of enemy subs. This might pay dividends, or it might just be a waste of scarce resources.

[RangerJoe]

I have had a Dutch sub sunk by a Val with one bomb hit. I would guess that the Val was on Naval Search with a 250 kg bomb . . . [:(]

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I have had a Dutch sub sunk by a Val with one bomb hit. I would guess that the Val was on Naval Search with a 250 kg bomb . . . [:(]

One class of Dutch subs gets PPSI radar later in the war. You may as well put the best three available commanders on those and send them somewhere out of harms way to train the crew until they get the upgrade. Sailing some short patrols out of Fremantle they might even knock off an I-boat if they catch it on the surface, and they are close to home if things go pear-shaped.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I have had a Dutch sub sunk by a Val with one bomb hit. I would guess that the Val was on Naval Search with a 250 kg bomb . . . [:(]

One class of Dutch subs gets PPSI radar later in the war. You may as well put the best three available commanders on those and send them somewhere out of harms way to train the crew until they get the upgrade. Sailing some short patrols out of Fremantle they might even knock off an I-boat if they catch it on the surface, and they are close to home if things go pear-shaped.

I believe that this was within a month after the war started and the sub was in deep water off Miri.

[ggeilman]

Thanks all for the input. Started making a lot of changes and is already paying some dividends. Next turn scratch one sub with the loss of only one 5 pt AK. Have a huge TF heading to LA with 3 ASWs escorting them out of the area. Noumea, Suva and Pago Pago are pretty well filled up at the moment so not much to do with the shorter ranged AKs for a few turns. Have 2 level 8 DEs coming in from Perth.

[ggeilman]

Update: After five turns have sunk 4 subs 2 of them off of Australia at the cost of one Destroyer. Now to run from the KB at Java!

[Sardaukar]

I have had this strange success of running my airplanes 10% ASW, 50% Naval Search.

Thus, they have advanced ASW skill almost miraculously. Not sure if it is quite realistic or bit like "gamey".