March direction and Enemy info

[Yaab]

I have pictures from my latest campaign against Jap AI.

Dates are 18 Dec 1941 and 19 Dec 1941.

Northern China. A Jap stack sits in an adjacent hex. No movement pointers have been observed in that stack since the game started. My Chinese stack (13th Group Army HQ plus 35th Chinese Corps) is moving to a different hex




And BANG, the next day, out of the blue, the Jap stack arrives magically in my hex.



How do you explain that?

[RangerJoe]

The AI cheats!

[BBfanboy]

Knowing a unit is there is a very low DL requirement. Knowing it is moving is somewhat more. I'd say if your DL on it was below 5 then you just didn't detect the movement. Counting cookshacks and privies only works if the unit stays near them.

[Chris21wen]

Knowing a unit is there is a very low DL requirement. Knowing it is moving is somewhat more. I'd say if your DL on it was below 5 then you just didn't detect the movement. Counting cookshacks and privies only works if the unit stays near them.

Couldn't agree more.

Unless you actively recon units by air or they fire you will not gain info on them, further whatever info you had will be gradually be lost and it doesn't take much time. If you look at the list of things that can change the DL, there's only one due to movement and that is the halfing of a DL when a units enters a new hex. If the unit does nothing or is not reconed by air there are more ways to lose DL than gaining it.

You also need to look at the difference between DL and MDL.

[Yaab]

Rechecked the old and new manual re detection.

Read all info pertaining to recon missions.

Did several relevant keyword searches (small unit, foliage, pointer, hide, conceal etc) in the manual re LCUs and terrain (There is only one mention of Clear terrain having "excellent visibility" and "few places to hide" but this info may easily apply to target acquistion in fire/bombardment combat)

Anyway, I have found no information whatsoever about movement pointer not showing up.

In other parts of China I am sitting adjacent to other Japanese units. Without any recon missions, with DL of 1, I can clearly see movement pointer on several single Jap units or Jap stacks.

My only guess is this. In the game and in Tracker you have leaders of LTC rank that are elligible to lead Small Units (no definition of Small Unit in the manual). The stack that suddenly moves in northern China consists of three Jap brigades. The unit that invisibly arrives in Nanning in my games was a Jap bde. I cannot test it (may getAssista can?) but my guess is that a Chinese unit can see movement pointers on an adjacent Jap division and PROBABLY cannot see the pointers if the Jap division divides into A/B/C regiments (like during recon missons , in which a recon aircraft has to pass a roll to detect each unit individually in a reconned hex). A bde/battalion/ABC regiment PROBABLY is a Small Unit for detection purposes, and a DL of 1 is not enough to detect movement pointers on those units. Remember, we are talking here slow infantry units - they are not tank unit that can cover 60 miles on major roads, changing hexes in one turn in the process.

[BBfanboy]

Are you aware that if the unit is not the first unit on the list in a stack, the movement pointer that appears is so small as to need a magnifying glass to see that it is there? The pointer for the first list in the stack is prominent and quite easily seen, but if your eyes are not looking for the subtle pointer they will not see it.

A second thought- giving orders to a unit is what creates 'radio traffic' in the hex which increases the DL. But for a unit marching through rough terrain over a period of weeks, the orders do not have to be given again and the radio signal DL boost disappears long before the unit reaches the target hex. The game manual does not mention it but I think there is something in the coding to give a better chance of the unit being randomly spotted if it is moving in populated, more open terrain like farmland or prairie/steppes. My experience has been that heavy terrain more often has surprise attacks by the enemy - not captured statistically just anecdotal.

[Chris21wen]

I modified the starting location of Kaifeng and Anyang and did some testing see pic. Japanese and Allied bases are min 2 hexes away.

Something I probably did know but forgot, when you start a game there's a randomness to the DL of both bases and ground units. In the pic you can see four base and all have got units in them but Kaifeng shows no units. The DL for all base varied between 1/1 and 3/3. I never got anything else but then I didn't start it that much.

If you do not actively recon a hex you will lose DL to the point were the ground units are removed from the map. In most cases, from the starting DL, it only took 2 turns, by the 9 Dec all the bases were at 0/0 and no units were spotted. I could do anything with those units, like giving them movement order and they still remained hidden.

Once they were all in the above state I started to move various unit towards the enemy, first one hex and then two. All moving units remained hidden until they moved adjacent to the enemy when they were either spotted or not. It seemed being spotted was the most liekly. The movement dot was visable if spotted and still moving (I.e. not told to move 1 hex). It seemed random and has probably got something to do with fog-of-war, which I'd expect. These hidden unitscan carry on being hidden but they were eventually spotted and they were always spotted when they moved into the enemies hex.

What I do not know is how does terrain, unit size, weather, how it's moving (E.g. you can combat move) affect DL. These thing are present in many games.

Looked at the second unit thing and couldn't see a difference. It's often difficult to see the movement marker down to terrain or map being used.

Everything works as I expect and assumed it did if you have fog-of-war on.

Capture.JPG (24.86 KiB) Viewed 799 times

[Yaab]

I always get those non-detection/no-pointer events in non-Clear terrain only.

I have tried to comb the forums to see if other players ran into similar problems

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p4373542

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4357976

Wow, others noticed the pointer issue too!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p4140808

michaelm doesn't know (seems LCU units in a stack can have their each indvidual DLs)
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p2852881

[Chris21wen]

I always get those non-detection/no-pointer events in non-Clear terrain only.

I have tried to comb the forums to see if other players ran into similar problems

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p4373542

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4357976

Wow, others noticed the pointer issue too!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p4140808

michaelm doesn't know (seems LCU units in a stack can have their each indvidual DLs)
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p2852881

What is said above, I do not know is how does terrain, unit size, weather, how it's moving (E.g. you can combat move) affect DL. As far as I'm concerned it's woking correctly.

It's just hidden under the hood. I do not know what the AI does with DL but my tests were done head to head and it could affect both sides.

[BBfanboy]

Way back I recall a discussion suggesting that the detection of enemy troops in a hex where you did not have any was a die roll thing - to simulate whether the local populace would have someone notify your troops that the enemy were there and where they were going. The DL from the die roll would determine how much info you got. This seems to fit with observations that sometimes you know they are there and sometimes not.

[Yaab]

Damn, pressing "W" reveals invisible Jap presence in adjacent hexes.
I think the updated manual should at least mention this phenomenon.

Pakhoi and the adjacent hex

[Yaab]

The manual on pages 31-32 has the sequence of play. All the phases in a turn are described therein. However, when you play the game, you may notice there is a sequence called " SEARCHING FOR ADAJACENT ENEMY UNITS". This phase is not listed in the manual. If detection of adjacent enemy LCUs is automatic, as the manual would have you believe, then why the need for a dedicated search phase?

[RangerJoe]

The manual on pages 31-32 has the sequence of play. All the phases in a turn are described therein. However, when you play the game, you may notice there is a sequence called " SEARCHING FOR ADAJACENT ENEMY UNITS". This phase is not listed in the manual. If detection of adjacent enemy LCUs is automatic, as the manual would have you believe, then why the need for a dedicated search phase?

Maybe it is put there because that is what the program is doing. Just like the various supply and resource movements.

[Chris21wen]

The manual on pages 31-32 has the sequence of play. All the phases in a turn are described therein. However, when you play the game, you may notice there is a sequence called " SEARCHING FOR ADAJACENT ENEMY UNITS". This phase is not listed in the manual. If detection of adjacent enemy LCUs is automatic, as the manual would have you believe, then why the need for a dedicated search phase?

I don't care what the manual says, detection of adjacent LCU is not automatic. My tests proved that. However there is a much better chance of detecting an adjcant LCU, hence that message.

As to what the manual says or does not says is something that should have been corrected a very long time ago for many reasons. I thought the new manual did that, it doesn't. It's just rewrite of the original in a different format with a few thing added but there's still an awful lot missing.

[Yaab]

Invisible Jap unit adjacent to Nanning

[Yaab]

How do you understand this?

manual. p 219

- - -
Ground unit detection level (DL)

If DL=0, set DL=1 Whenever in a hex adjacent to an enemy ground unit

Subtract 1 from DL
End of each Day and Night resolution phase (essentially once every 12 hours)

Add 1 to DL Whenever in a hex with an enemy ground unit

- - -

OK, an enemy LCU enters an adjacent hex next to my LCU. Since the enemy LCU is now in the adjacent hex, its DL is first 0 but next is raised to 1. However, in the same turn its DL of 1 is reduced twice (Day and Night phase). Since DL cannot be negative, it is set to DL 0. Thus the enemy unit in adjacent hex is now invisible to me?

Actually, it should work the same if enemy arrives in my hex and just sits in it, without combat. I get +1 DL, but Day/Night phases reduce the enemy DL to 0. Which is absurd, because on the map, you always see both units (friendly and enemy one) in frontline hexes.

[morphin]

No DL is always at least 1 if Enemy is adjacent hex. So no further reduction....

[BBfanboy]

No DL is always at least 1 if Enemy is adjacent hex. So no further reduction....

If this is true, then a DL of 1 does not provide certain sighting of the enemy unit, just a bad odor! Still invisible, right!?

[morphin]

Yes. "You feel something is there"

[Chris21wen]

The rules in the manual do not mention that spotting is random. The DL/MDL are simply a measure of that likelihood. As per the manual Section 10.1. p197 ..

'...each of these units, as well as each base, has a Detection Level (DL) and a Maximum Detection Level (MDL), both between 0 and 10. The DL indicates very recent intelligence about the enemy and it is the DL that has an impact on combat results. The MDL represents a general awareness of the enemy based on both recent and less current information, and it is this level that is used to determine which enemy units are placed on the map.'

They can and often are different.

Also in this section, game events can change these DL/MDL levels, hence increasing/decreasing the chance of spotting. These are DL modifiers. For example...

Subtract 1 from DL End of each Day and Night resolution phase (essentially once every 12 hours)
Add 1 to DL Whenever in a hex with an enemy ground unit
If DL=0, set DL=1 Whenever in a hex adjacent to an enemy ground unit'.

I've tested ground unit spooting before and I've just spent 4 hours testing it again and have come to this conclusion.

The vast majority of units adjacent to an enemy unit will be detected but there is some small chance they will not. This means there's some randomness to the DL process. Units in the same hex are always detected. This random check is what is happening when the message "SEARCHING FOR ADAJACENT ENEMY UNITS" appears and that happens almost at the end of the resolution phase (very near the end of the turn).

At the start of each turn a unit/base's DL/MDL levels are set from the previous turn (first turn DL/MDL level are all ranndom). They will not change until the resolution phase is executed at which time DL modifiers are then applied. I suspect the DL levels change constantly throughout combat. At the very end of the turn the MDL is calculated for map display. Remember DL is combat, MDL is map visiblity.

There are many other things that affect spotting; weather, terrain, luck, experience etc.