PAs, FPs and some ASW advice needed

[CyrusSpitama]

As a recent returnee to playing this I have been researching many topics. One burning issue is I cannot remember all of my planes training I did. Let me ask my questions and forgive me for not web searching further. I assure you I have read many AARs and advice posts and failed to find some of the answers I am seeking. These answers I am seeking are largely from the Japan point of view. I only play against the AI right now so not seeking perfection so much as good practices.

PAs: I have been training these primarily for Naval Search missions along with NavT and ASW. I feel this covers most of their uses but does beg the question, do I need to also train NavB or LowNav for their better success in targeting and striking for NavSearch/ASW missions?
As an aside, when the chance arises I do try to train my PAs with some Air skill. In my personal experience this helps them survive air encounters if their skill isn't abysmal. It does also seem to help them shooting down enemies. This philosophy is carried over into other bomber/patrol/recon planes when possible but, it is never something I am absolute in doing.

FPs: I have been training these for Naval Search, Recon, and ASW primarily. Some Air skill trained when possible but, as mentioned above it is not an absolute thing. I have found mention of people using these as shipping bombers. I never thought their bombs were worthy of much else than harassing subs? Do people really find this a worthy skill for FPs?

As a bonus mention, I do train my many Army bombers in NavB and NavSearch on key positioned squadrons to harass shipping whenever they are near the coast. The amount of smaller light bomber squadrons helps covers my many gaps in air recon/search coverage. Covering the many gaps in the lines with search planes is something I am always tweaking adjusting and never feeling I have it quite right.

P.S. Some of the JPN fighters/FBs end up with a some NavB training as well. What other "bonus" skills do y'all use for your planes? Any additional ASW advice is welcomed. Reliable Torpedos was a mistake for this game! hah

[Chris21wen]

These are good questions and I've often wondered that but as far as I know, no is the answer. I believe and work with only those skills appropriate to an air groups mission are important. For instance search missions use there own routine therefore NavB plays part. Likewise NavS plays no part in Naval attack missions. That does not mean that there cannot improve during a mission just because they play no part. I can stand corrected on this!

When you train a PA at >=1K for search all that is specifically trained is NS along with Exp and Def but the last two are always trianed no matter what training you give them. However at 100' straf is trained instead. But again it is possible for random skills to also improve but this is rare for training.

Note that torpedos are never carried during search missions.

If you give a PA general training everything except for N, G, Straf are trained.

Initially you should train a group for its primary role in the game but sometime you may switch rolls. E.g. If you using a LB for search then train it in search or general as that way it will also train in G.

I should also point out, and many do not fully appreciate this, it's the pilots that are trained not the group or for that matter the aircraft. A pilots skill is not lost if you you transfer him to a group flying a different aircraft type only. Experience is but only by a few point.

I did extensive test on what is trained and when and can be found here. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3&t=396274

[RangerJoe]

Submarines have been sunk by 60 kg bombs.

I have sunk ships with 30 kg bombs. The Jakes can be effective against cargo vessels even before being fully trained in Low Naval attack.

But the training depends upon your playing style and which side that you are playing.

[PaxMondo]

As a recent returnee to playing this I have been researching many topics. One burning issue is I cannot remember all of my planes training I did. Let me ask my questions and forgive me for not web searching further. I assure you I have read many AARs and advice posts and failed to find some of the answers I am seeking. These answers I am seeking are largely from the Japan point of view. I only play against the AI right now so not seeking perfection so much as good practices.

When you play Ironman on VH, you will need to have you air practices down or the AI will beat you ....

PAs: I have been training these primarily for Naval Search missions along with NavT and ASW. I feel this covers most of their uses but does beg the question, do I need to also train NavB or LowNav for their better success in targeting and striking for NavSearch/ASW missions?

So, the first question is: What altitude do you fly your patrol missions? That will answer your NavB or LowNav questions. I tend to fly my NavS missions from 4K-> 15K. I tend to fly my ASW mission 2K - 4K. I rarely train up pilots in both NavS and ASW because it takes too long to get proficient in both, I need these pilots too much to wait, and I never use Emily in ASW. Get so few patrol groups, I would never waste them on ASW. I only use FP groups on ASW along with lots of them on NavS.

As an aside, when the chance arises I do try to train my PAs with some Air skill. In my personal experience this helps them survive air encounters if their skill isn't abysmal. It does also seem to help them shooting down enemies. This philosophy is carried over into other bomber/patrol/recon planes when possible but, it is never something I am absolute in doing.

This has been discussed in the past and discounted. Air skill is only looked at in A2A combat with fighter type aircraft; any aircraft that can be assigned a sweep OR CAP mission.

What you are seeing is simply the increased def skill that any training or encounter would increase, meaning more experienced pilots have higher def and therefore have a higher chance to survive combat.

FPs: I have been training these for Naval Search, Recon, and ASW primarily. Some Air skill trained when possible but, as mentioned above it is not an absolute thing. I have found mention of people using these as shipping bombers. I never thought their bombs were worthy of much else than harassing subs? Do people really find this a worthy skill for FPs?

As part of their NavS and ASW missions, FP's will bomb targets and will hit.

As a bonus mention, I do train my many Army bombers in NavB and NavSearch on key positioned squadrons to harass shipping whenever they are near the coast. The amount of smaller light bomber squadrons helps covers my many gaps in air recon/search coverage. Covering the many gaps in the lines with search planes is something I am always tweaking adjusting and never feeling I have it quite right.

We all do. Jakes are my preferred aircraft in this role though due to range and the pilots are trained in NavS. My recon is done by Babs/Dinah. The Dinah III is one of the best recon planes in the game. I move these groups around a lot; each group will typically have 6 - 10 targets that it will cycle through. Glen is also a key recon for me. Some NavS, but mostly LR deep recon. My Glen boats are always deployed WAY WAY out there. Boomers to be sure ....

The IJ doesn't have intel, so you have to make up for it in NavS and Recon.

P.S. Some of the JPN fighters/FBs end up with a some NavB training as well. What other "bonus" skills do y'all use for your planes? Any additional ASW advice is welcomed. Reliable Torpedos was a mistake for this game! hah

IJ fighter DUR is too low to use as bombers ... lose too many pilots, Fighter pilots train sweep@10000 and sweep@100 for DEF.

[CyrusSpitama]

@Pax. Firstly, thanks for the refining questions. I decided to post less information in order to bring out more details I could be overlooking. It goes without saying these bonus training skills I dont focus on heavily. It is something they pick up on as time passes when they find themselves less active. Noted about the Air skill. I guess that bit of extra training they grabbed, as you said, increased their Def skill enough to make them that much *tougher*. Secondly, let me try my best to answer your queries.

So, the first question is: What altitude do you fly your patrol missions? That will answer your NavB or LowNav questions. I tend to fly my NavS missions from 4K-> 15K. I tend to fly my ASW mission 2K - 4K. I rarely train up pilots in both NavS and ASW because it takes too long to get proficient in both, I need these pilots too much to wait, and I never use Emily in ASW. Get so few patrol groups, I would never waste them on ASW. I only use FP groups on ASW along with lots of them on NavS."

The large majority of my ASW missions are run at 2k-5k. Search missions are usually run at 5k-10k. The Alt of my missions is determined both by how few planes I have to run in this area ( I run lower Alt for better results or so it appears) and by how many military ships I expect to see in the area. If the answer is almost no military ships or air bases in the area to be covered I tend to run lower altitudes. If I know these few planes need to search best they can and dont really have the numbers, I run lower altitudes. With the above said, when setting their initial orders, my first impulse is always 2k for ASW and 5k for search. I then evaluate their conditions and adjust.

I dont find the FPs that difficult to train for both ASW and NavSearch but, then I am no expert and not playing against human opponents! I manage this by doing the initial squadron expansions via the Chitose and then set some for ASW and some for Search. They then swap once reaching 60ish. It should be noted the initial expanded float planes squadrons are hard to fill ( as you know) so I press the best of these into immediate Searching around Takao/Pescadores then adjust from there. Your thoughts on this make me consider some training adjustments here. Does this mean you are essentially running in the same zone one squadron at ASW and one at NavSearch ?

As for the NavB and LowNav this brings up my question again. Are these a factor in success or is the ASW and/or NavSearch mission wholly reliant upon that skill alone?

Final answer/comment: I suppose it is rather risky using PAs for torpedo runs. I use this on a very limited basis and dont consider this a primary function. Consider it more of a gap filler. it could also be said I shouldn't allow this gap to occur... hrmm....As for ASW on the PAs, this again isnt a regular thing but more of a gap filler. Hrmm... See my previous comment I use the training time in these two skills to raise the PA experience. As we all know, better exp and morale pilots tend to race out to their planes and are ready to fly almost as soon as their orders are given

@ RangerJoe and Pax same time. So you find the Jakes are sufficiently usable in the NavB role that I should look into that? Wouldn't this mean increasing Jake production as well? I do increase this normally but, only in small amounts. Plenty of other resources being spent on research for other planes. Using Jakes I have seen in AARs. I guess I never really considered it much due to their bomb sizes.

Follow-up question: Do you find it better overall doing search arcs as random or do you finely tune and customize ALL search squadrons? I used refined arcs only in certain troubled areas.

"edited for clarity and corrections"

[RangerJoe]

Your CS class vessels and some of your cruisers have two float plane units. You can pull one of the cruiser float plane units off and supersize it. Then resize the remaining one to fill the cruiser up. Those cruiser float plane units usually can not be divided into thirds but I believe that the CS class float plane units can be divided. These units can be used for ASW, Naval Search, Low Naval attacks, and/or training all skills except for torpedo attacks. Low Naval skills are used for kamikazes if I remember correctly. The Petes can even be used as night fighters to disrupt the enemy bombers. If you convert/upgrade the CS class vessels to CVLs, they need there inherent float plane units otherwise they don't come in with air units. The other float plane units that have been supersized and then divided into thirds are just perfect for the AV class vessels that can support 9 float planes. Station them at dot and/or small bases for ASW searches along your convoy routes. As the Japanese player, you can make more AV vessels from cargo vessels. As long as you still have a CS class vessel or even an AV, any float plane units from sunken vessels can be resized and used from shore bases. I believe that the Japanese LSDs are giving some float plane capability as well.

As far as the altitudes go, I believe that a developer stated that 1,000 feet or even 100 feet is the best altitude for ASW. There is less time to react. Also, the fatigue goes up faster so allow for rest for both the pilots and aircraft. Reserve aircraft should be allocated so some aircraft can be pulled out for maintenance.

I believe that the best stated altitude for all around naval searching is 6,000 feet but I set my DB scouts at 10,000 feet with a percentage of searching and the rest on naval attack. No rest for the DBs unless there is no target. The aircraft for naval search will also need reserve aircraft and if that is their sole mission, they also need to have a percentage set on rest.

As always, try to have extra pilots so some can "stand down" using Group Reserve when they get too tired.

Setting up the dedicated units for training is an entirely long topic on its own with different people having different ideas as well.

[BBfanboy]

The 6000 foot search level for Naval Search was a compromise - the lowest altitude that would allow you to see from one side to the other of a wedge shaped search area on a 10 hex range. At that altitude you might miss a single small xAK but are likely to see anything bigger. Some players use NavS at 10,000 or more feet where you can see further (atmospheric conditions allowing) but are more likely to miss small vessels.

Something like a surfaced sub might only be visible if it is moving at max speed and making a wake. So there is no perfect altitude for search. Maybe it should be multi-layered like CAP if you are sure enemy vessels are out in a given direction.

[CyrusSpitama]

Your CS class vessels and some of your cruisers have two float plane units. You can pull one of the cruiser float plane units off and supersize it. Then resize the remaining one to fill the cruiser up. Those cruiser float plane units usually can not be divided into thirds but I believe that the CS class float plane units can be divided. These units can be used for ASW, Naval Search, Low Naval attacks, and/or training all skills except for torpedo attacks. Low Naval skills are used for kamikazes if I remember correctly. The Petes can even be used as night fighters to disrupt the enemy bombers. If you convert/upgrade the CS class vessels to CVLs, they need there inherent float plane units otherwise they don't come in with air units. The other float plane units that have been supersized and then divided into thirds are just perfect for the AV class vessels that can support 9 float planes. Station them at dot and/or small bases for ASW searches along your convoy routes. As the Japanese player, you can make more AV vessels from cargo vessels. As long as you still have a CS class vessel or even an AV, any float plane units from sunken vessels can be resized and used from shore bases. I believe that the Japanese LSDs are giving some float plane capability as well.

As far as the altitudes go, I believe that a developer stated that 1,000 feet or even 100 feet is the best altitude for ASW. There is less time to react. Also, the fatigue goes up faster so allow for rest for both the pilots and aircraft. Reserve aircraft should be allocated so some aircraft can be pulled out for maintenance.

I believe that the best stated altitude for all around naval searching is 6,000 feet but I set my DB scouts at 10,000 feet with a percentage of searching and the rest on naval attack. No rest for the DBs unless there is no target. The aircraft for naval search will also need reserve aircraft and if that is their sole mission, they also need to have a percentage set on rest.

As always, try to have extra pilots so some can "stand down" using Group Reserve when they get too tired.

Setting up the dedicated units for training is an entirely long topic on its own with different people having different ideas as well.

I do currently have about a dozen AV vessels converting over but, that takes some time. Your thoughts here made me realize I did not consider just keeping one squadron of FPs on my CS that run around with the KB and Mini-KB. I can expand the other and base them. I am aware of them needing to be re-based on the CS if I convert them to CVLs. This again begs the question of... how many Jakes should I be producing monthly? Currently have two factories producing them. The starting one at 27 per month and one I created that produces another 10. Still woefully short on Jakes here on January 18th of '42 Seems to me if I will consider using them more often as light bombers vs. fleets I will be seeing more losses for them.

I suspect another aspect of my setup is to stop creating the Alf FPs. Currently at 10 per month. I had stopped producing Petes altogether. It seems no one else favors the Alfs and the Pete certainly has a much better climb rate and maneuver rating than the Alf. I liked that little bit of extra range but, seeing it discussed here in print makes me realize their backup F role would be better filled as Petes vs. the Alfs.

As for my pilots I do try and rest them but, not via Group Reserves usually. Does it matter if I am just placing them in General Reserve and then posting them in some backwater to do a minor touch up on training? This is often when they are picking up those extra skills I mentioned training. They will sit there for a couple of weeks or so until I move them up as replacements in the front line squadrons.

[RangerJoe]

Training is a whole large topic and different people have different ideas.

I usually just have one Jake factory at size 60 . . .
You can turn it off if you have to but supersizing that many float plane units will need a lot of float planes. The Jakes are the best float planes as search aircraft for the Japanese early on although the Rufes are also useful, the upgraded Jakes get radar later. I just wish that it wasn't a different model but just add the radar later. I wonder if the Japanese really did have a different model with the radar or just modified existing aircraft while the new ones had the radar installed at the factory.

I use the Group Reserve to keep the pilots in the unit. The ones that fly the most usually are the better pilots. I rest those tired pilots while in the unit to try and get some of the other pilots to fly missions. In active but not training units when the pilots don't fly missions, they usually don't gain in experience nor skills. It doesn't always work however so I have to keep checking on the units. Training units use the pilots differently. Training pilots is another long discussion with differing methods.

You might want to keep one CS as a CS, at least for awhile. They are still useful and if needed, they can fly Rufes and/or Rexes as CAP against search planes and/or torpedo bombers. Also, using while Jakes as search aircraft the Allies aren't warned that a carrier is in the area since they would see a float plane and not a carrier plane. So the tactical use of the aircraft is another discussion where people will use them differently. Not wrong or incorrectly per se, just differently.

[Chris21wen]

The FP groups on a CS convert to F and TB air groups when the CS is converted into a CVL. If they are not on the carrier at that time this does not happen. All of the AG need to be there so split group and possible fragments will prevent it.

The Japanese have some consderable number of ships with more than one air group on them and nearly all can be resized. Gamey or not, don't care, I always remove one to shore base and resize the other to fit the ship. The ones moved to shore are also resized to 9 via a CS and used mainly as ASW units. 9 as a sop to gamey as you could easily resize to fit the the CS.

I stop building all other FP except for the Jake and use this in all shore FP groups possible. Much longer range but as said you could use the Pete but you don't need to build them as you'll have more than enough through the Jake swap.

For ship based I leave the Alf on the CL,AMC and CM, only replacing whrn I run out of them and this is highly unlikely. I leave the Glen on the subs replace with the Pete, yes I know but it is the smallest FP other than the Glen and is considered really gamey by the purest. All the rest get swapped for Jakes.

[Chris21wen]

100' was mentioned for ASW missions, it probably works but I'd not fancy dropping a bomb at 100' even a small one, you'd get you ass blown off.

If you look at pilot training any group training at 100' for any mission type trains almost exclusively for straffing. The exceptions are when carrying torpedoes then LowN replaces straf, and escort training when its Air. So training at 100' will not impove ASW skills.

[PaxMondo]

Training is a whole large topic and different people have different ideas.

and HOWDY!!!

Yeah, everyone has their own "special" sauce for training. Most of it strictly empirical, but hey, 1000's of hours do that to you.

Cyrus:
The last thing I will say about training is that you need to play enough to learn what your losses are, and then you know what you need to develop. EX: I tend to lose a lot of fighter and recon pilots; I put both of them in tough situations routinely, but in both cases I am trading those pilots for ships and ships with units onboard. So, my training plan emphasizes both of those. And having played so many games, I know my approx losses that I will incur, and the margins due to GG randomness for those losses, and then can plan out the required training to keep my air groups with pilots. Trust me, this takes time to learn and EVERY player is different in this regard.

PS: I play a variant of Ironman v3 which has an allied opponent on super steroids, basically just stripping the european buildup to crush IJ.

[Chris21wen]

My observations on pilot training are based on tests carried out over a two year game time period using v26b. It took two years game time because the number of combinations between aircraft type, mission, loadout and height there are. Although there are only three heights shown in the chart below I did test more but soon realised that only three mattered.

Although 'empirical' they are correct but it is not the whole story as other factors come into play and the full story can be found in the Air War Guide here https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 3&t=396274

[PaxMondo]

@Pax. Firstly, thanks for the refining questions. I decided to post less information in order to bring out more details I could be overlooking. It goes without saying these bonus training skills I dont focus on heavily. It is something they pick up on as time passes when they find themselves less active. Noted about the Air skill. I guess that bit of extra training they grabbed, as you said, increased their Def skill enough to make them that much *tougher*. Secondly, let me try my best to answer your queries.

So, the first question is: What altitude do you fly your patrol missions? That will answer your NavB or LowNav questions. I tend to fly my NavS missions from 4K-> 15K. I tend to fly my ASW mission 2K - 4K. I rarely train up pilots in both NavS and ASW because it takes too long to get proficient in both, I need these pilots too much to wait, and I never use Emily in ASW. Get so few patrol groups, I would never waste them on ASW. I only use FP groups on ASW along with lots of them on NavS."

The large majority of my ASW missions are run at 2k-5k. Search missions are usually run at 5k-10k. The Alt of my missions is determined both by how few planes I have to run in this area ( I run lower Alt for better results or so it appears) and by how many military ships I expect to see in the area. If the answer is almost no military ships or air bases in the area to be covered I tend to run lower altitudes. If I know these few planes need to search best they can and dont really have the numbers, I run lower altitudes. With the above said, when setting their initial orders, my first impulse is always 2k for ASW and 5k for search. I then evaluate their conditions and adjust.

I dont find the FPs that difficult to train for both ASW and NavSearch but, then I am no expert and not playing against human opponents! I manage this by doing the initial squadron expansions via the Chitose and then set some for ASW and some for Search. They then swap once reaching 60ish. It should be noted the initial expanded float planes squadrons are hard to fill ( as you know) so I press the best of these into immediate Searching around Takao/Pescadores then adjust from there. Your thoughts on this make me consider some training adjustments here. Does this mean you are essentially running in the same zone one squadron at ASW and one at NavSearch ?

As for the NavB and LowNav this brings up my question again. Are these a factor in success or is the ASW and/or NavSearch mission wholly reliant upon that skill alone?

Final answer/comment: I suppose it is rather risky using PAs for torpedo runs. I use this on a very limited basis and dont consider this a primary function. Consider it more of a gap filler. it could also be said I shouldn't allow this gap to occur... hrmm....As for ASW on the PAs, this again isnt a regular thing but more of a gap filler. Hrmm... See my previous comment I use the training time in these two skills to raise the PA experience. As we all know, better exp and morale pilots tend to race out to their planes and are ready to fly almost as soon as their orders are given

@ RangerJoe and Pax same time. So you find the Jakes are sufficiently usable in the NavB role that I should look into that? Wouldn't this mean increasing Jake production as well? I do increase this normally but, only in small amounts. Plenty of other resources being spent on research for other planes. Using Jakes I have seen in AARs. I guess I never really considered it much due to their bomb sizes.

Follow-up question: Do you find it better overall doing search arcs as random or do you finely tune and customize ALL search squadrons? I used refined arcs only in certain troubled areas.

"edited for clarity and corrections"

Full training a skill is to 70, and generally that is what you want. 60 is only when you are in a rush, like early game and you gotta have pilots. What we know about skills is that they are NOT linear, there is a hook and it starts at about 70. skill 80 is not a little better than 70, it is a LOT better. skill 90 is god-like. Units with 90 skill will do things that are otherwise impossible. Exp is also important, but is much easier to acquire. So 90/90 pilots you develop and then save for those ultra-critical missions. Think Doolittle Raid.